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Post by The Sandmen on Feb 21, 2013 7:52:58 GMT -5
So instead of implementing the 15 person roster limit, we are sticking with 20, but adding the "Neglect Stipulation". All you really need to know is the following: Starting NEXT SEASON (ManMMA 121), your fighters losing streaks will be kept track of. Once they hit around a 3 fight losing streak without being upgraded during that skid, they will be put into a Warning Board (that I will create and maintain soon). If that fighter reaches a 5 fight losing streak without an upgrade, they will be cut ( without compensation) immediately following their fifth loss. If they ARE upgraded at any point during that 5 fight losing streak, the counter starts over again. So, in a nutshell: starting next season if your fighter (or fighters) reach a 5 fight losing streak without an upgrade during that time, they are lost to free agency without compensation.
(I keep track of win-loss streaks with a +/- system) So if I have Jon Smith, he is on a 4 fight losing streak, and I put 1 upgrade point into him, and he loses his next fight, he is only -1, NOT -5. If any clarification is needed, post below. If you wish to complain about this, do so a week ago. This is what we are doing and I am not changing it going forward Please note: sending a fighter to a training camp does not count. More details on that later.
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Post by The Rocketmen on Feb 21, 2013 9:33:59 GMT -5
Cool. I like it all. It's fair and straight forward.
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Post by xx - Camp Cannon on Feb 21, 2013 10:58:10 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2013 11:21:01 GMT -5
This is fine, I think a max limit of 15 with this rule would have been better. 15 fighters is more then enough.
However this is fine
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Feb 21, 2013 12:01:57 GMT -5
I disagree with the format and the "no compensation" portion of this; not the principle of it. I agree that if a fighter is on a 5 fight losing streak, without any upgrade at all, then they should be cut due to neglect. That's the fair part. What the rule really should be is that if fighters have been upgraded at all, the fighters should be safe from this rule and the onus is on the GM to decide whether they get cut or not; none of this "counter starts over again" crap.
I need only point to Bobby Lashley as an example in this league. I kept putting points into him and he kept losing, so I, reluctantly, dropped him. Underdogs comes in and puts 2 more points (and more since) and he's a wrecking machine now. The way you have this set up right now, is that is a team has a Lashley, or for that matter, a Kedzie, that these teams, if they want to keep these fighters, are going to be perpetually putting points into these losing fighters and neglecting their other ones that might be close to being contenders or champions. That's one of the unfair parts.
The other is the "no compensation". If you've already invested points and time into the fighter then you're effectively forced to drop the fighter by the league, you deserve to atleast get something back in return for that fighter, especially if it's a fighter you had not intention of dropping at all. Also, the training camps should count as upgrades, because that's exactly what they are, upgrades and showing lack of neglect.
I can't endorse this, nor can I stand here and "smile and nod" either. Again, this is wrong. Say it's me "bitching" again all you like, but the fact is that this isn't as fair of rule as it could/should be.
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Ferocity
Black Belt (5th Degree)
Posts: 3,455
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Post by Ferocity on Feb 21, 2013 13:35:22 GMT -5
these people don't disappear into some black hole of nothingness. They are on the draft- you can pick up your loser again if you really want to.
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Feb 21, 2013 14:14:10 GMT -5
these people don't disappear into some black hole of nothingness. They are on the draft- you can pick up your loser again if you really want to. Yes, Ferocity, but you're losing the fighter for nothing and you'd have to swap one of your "better" fighters or pay two points to get them back. That's hardly fair since the idea is to prevent neglect, but if you're having paying 2 points to get them back, why couldn't those points just be put into that fighter? It makes no sense. Plus, the way it's put forth here totally contradicts what Sandman claimed the rule was going to be in the other thread, in that if you're not neglecting fighters, this rule should need not apply at all. The way it's written here is that they have to be upgraded during the losing streak to avoid being cut even if you've already put points into the fighter previously. That's my point. For example, say for some reason, Brock now goes on another 6 fight bender again. I've already put 6 points into him but those points that I've already put in wouldn't count towards this the way it's written here. I'd have to put atleast 1 point into something just to keep him when he's actually one of my better fighters with a winning record still. Now, granted, I accumulate points fairly easily, but for other teams, they don't post as much as I do and don't acquire the points as quickly. Plus the fact that training camp doesn't count as being an upgrade is ridiculous. Training Camp is an extra outlet for teams to upgrade their fighters and show lack of neglect when they don't have the points readily available to put into them. Why have training camp at all if it doesn't count as an upgrade? Seems kinda silly.
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Post by The Rocketmen on Feb 21, 2013 16:34:00 GMT -5
"that these teams, if they want to keep these fighters, are going to be perpetually putting points into these losing fighters and neglecting their other ones that might be close to being contenders or champions. That's one of the unfair parts. "
.... says the guy that refuses to part with any of his shitty fighters who are terrible...
Here's the thing you're not considering: if he's on a 4 fight losing streak and you gave up on him, cut him and get a point before he's up to be cut...?
You get to keep your 20 fighters, you get more points on this site than anyone, you'll figure it out.
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Post by The Sandmen on Feb 21, 2013 17:44:58 GMT -5
1) I think I am the only one here who can actually SEE everyone's win streaks. It takes a LOT for someone to hit a 5 fight losing streak. Of those that do, almost all of them are SEVERELY NEGLECTED fighters. Kenny FLorian, John Dodson, Carina Damm, Matt Serra, Dennis Siver, Frank Mir. Etc. No points have ever been put into these guys, that's why they blow. They are NEGLECTED.
2) 5 fights is a LONG time. It's well over a season for losing fighters. In that time, you have LOTS of time to upgrade the neglectarino, AND your main guy. If not, then you don't need/want the neglectarino.
3) Training Camp doesn't count because every off-season I pick the most neglected, underperforming fighters and let you submit them for training. Thus, I am doing your job. But as I said, more on training camp stuff later.
4) Upgrading one guy once and making him forever immune to being cut is simply stupid. I don't think I need to elaborate on that. The point is to keep guys good, fresh, and active. I don't want a ton of neglected fighters on the site. Plain and simple.
5) You get 2 free points at draft every year. If you NEVER post, you can EASILY maintain a team with those 2 points, for the reason I mentioned at #2. It takes over a year to accumulate a 5 fight losing streak.
6) You get no compensation because you are NEGLECTING THE GUY. I don't WANT you to neglect the guy, so I am not offering a reward for you neglecting someone into the ground until they are cut. If you lose a body for free, it's motivation to get a point into him. Otherwise I should just give everyone who has not signed onto the site in 5 days 100 points, rewarding them for their absence. Makes no sense.
7) As Mike said above, you don't HAVE to let a guy get neglected-til-cut. You can swap him earlier if you are giving up on him, or PUT A SINGLE FRICKEN POINT INTO THAT FIGHTER. You get 2 free points a year. Not hard.
8) Cannon is gonna hate me for this, but he made a great point to me on MSN. He said, "if we do that, I might lose Shogun". And that's EXACTLY why this rule is how it is. Shogun Rua is doomed right now because he is on the same team as Ronda Rousey. He will never get an upgrade as long as Cannon has Rousey, nor will anyone on Camp Cannon. This gives other people a chance at those elite fighters who are neglected for one person.
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Feb 21, 2013 17:55:27 GMT -5
I more talking about the ones that aren't neglected, like Brock and Kedzie, that have been upgraded out the ass and are still losing fights when they shouldn't be. I don't know what's going to happen with Brock now... that last loss could be the start of another bender, we won't know til he fights again, but I refuse to lose fighters that I've already upgraded and put more than 2 points into and receive nothing for them. That's what is stupid. In nearly all cases, I've put more than 2 points into all of my fighters that have been upgraded, that's also not including training camps, which should be counted as upgrades as well.
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Post by The Rocketmen on Feb 21, 2013 18:11:37 GMT -5
If he was upgraded it doesn't matter. You seem to be fixated on possibly losing a fighter for a reason that doesn't exist. A point goes in, they are safe for basically a full season. Think of how many points you use in a FULL SEASON.
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Feb 21, 2013 18:40:45 GMT -5
If he was upgraded it doesn't matter. You seem to be fixated on possibly losing a fighter for a reason that doesn't exist. A point goes in, they are safe for basically a full season. Think of how many points you use in a FULL SEASON. It does exist. Just because you say it doesn't exist, doesn't make it non-existent, HammerFists. The fact is that I have plans for all of my fighters, but if I'm spending more time on maintenance of my lower end fighters, my top end fighters will be the ones getting neglected, and that's not right either.
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Post by The Sandmen on Feb 21, 2013 19:01:05 GMT -5
5 guys in ALL OF MANMMA are currently at 5 fight losing streaks.... All 5 are neglected, never-upgraded fighters. I don;t understand what part of this you are not understanding Phoenix. Why not wait until you see how it actually plays out before having a fit?
This new rule will have A LOT less impact than what people think.
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Ferocity
Black Belt (5th Degree)
Posts: 3,455
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Post by Ferocity on Feb 21, 2013 19:56:43 GMT -5
can the problem not exist because Hammerfists and I say it doesn't? No one is going on any 5 game loosing streaks. And if they do you toss 1 point every 4 losses and you keep them. This seems insanely reasonable to me. I can't post that much, and I could manage this. EVERYONE on here can manage this.
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Post by Lord Byron's Conquistadors on Feb 26, 2013 10:05:41 GMT -5
i don think the problem exists either. this makes sense. if you ignore your loser you lose him, lol makes sense to me.
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