|
|
Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Apr 2, 2013 13:55:43 GMT -5
Agree with GAP on all 4 points here. Especially on the mixed martial arts point. If a fighter controls and neutralizes his opponents offensive attack, that should be taken into account and generally doesn't seem to be in allot of cases in judging the entire fight as opposed to judging round by round. I get that you want you precious 'exciting' fights Sandman but I've seen plenty of exciting fights that took place on the ground where there wasn't allot of offense too and it was allot of control, posturing and out maneuvering from both fighters.
|
|
Ferocity
Black Belt (5th Degree)
Posts: 3,455
|
Post by Ferocity on Apr 2, 2013 20:09:08 GMT -5
I think we have to accept the fact that MMA as it now stands is about AGGRESSION and being the AGGRESSOR. Good defense is not respected. It's not a self defense competition. (which might be interesting to see)
|
|
|
|
Post by The Sandmen on Apr 3, 2013 2:08:51 GMT -5
but you have to realize that judges look at the entire fight and they look for Control, Damage, aggrssion, takedowns, unanswered strikes, all of which are way of winning points. No, that is my point. They do NOT take all that into account via looking at the ENTIRE FIGHT. They score rounds. So instead of getting guys trying to finish (if it matters, my preferred fight to watch is an awesome ground/BJJ fight) you get guys who gain a dominate position and hold it. Screw the damage thing, if we wanna talk BJJ/ground, let's look at it this way. 3 round fight. You take me down, and lock me into 5 GOOD submission attempts, transitioning BEAUTIFULLY from armbars, to triangle chokes, even popping up a smooth-as-hell gogoplata. Twice, I manage to escape, and stand up, but you take me down again. But I manage to escape, and lets say the last one I am probably gonna tap, but the bell saves me. Then rounds 2 and 3, I take you down once, rub my glove in your face, transition from your guard to a half guard, then back to guard, then back to half guard, then side control, then back into your guard, then half guard, then into full guard again. Can you honestly say I should win that bullshit? You took me down more times in 1 round than I did the whole fight. You almost finished the fight. And you were aggressive when you were in control. But I squeaked out the decision win because I laid on you longer. I've seen that shit too many times in the UFC and it's stupid. |
|
|
|
Post by The Sandmen on Apr 3, 2013 2:13:34 GMT -5
I think we have to accept the fact that MMA as it now stands is about AGGRESSION and being the AGGRESSOR. Good defense is not respected. It's not a self defense competition. (which might be interesting to see) Phoenix liked this right after agreeing with GAP, which i think is odd. What Ferocity said is my point. YOu should be aggressive for a whole FIGHT. It's a FIGHT. Lay and pray is not aggression. I have seen guys lose fights ONLY because they were on the bottom. They did A LOT more than the guy on top of them, elbows, sub attempts, everything. But the other guy was on top of them, and judges are sheep. When you score a WHOLE FIGHT (reminder, fighters are paid per fight, not round), you should take into account what someone did during that fight. Not say, "oh, but that MASSIVE offence/aggression was only for the first round, then he got laid on, so he should lose". That is flawed logic, regardless of what aspect of MMA you prefer (wrestling, ground, bjj, standup, etc). |
|
|
|
Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Apr 3, 2013 3:26:29 GMT -5
I think we have to accept the fact that MMA as it now stands is about AGGRESSION and being the AGGRESSOR. Good defense is not respected. It's not a self defense competition. (which might be interesting to see) Phoenix liked this right after agreeing with GAP, which i think is odd. What Ferocity said is my point. YOu should be aggressive for a whole FIGHT. It's a FIGHT. Lay and pray is not aggression. I have seen guys lose fights ONLY because they were on the bottom. They did A LOT more than the guy on top of them, elbows, sub attempts, everything. But the other guy was on top of them, and judges are sheep. When you score a WHOLE FIGHT (reminder, fighters are paid per fight, not round), you should take into account what someone did during that fight. Not say, "oh, but that MASSIVE offence/aggression was only for the first round, then he got laid on, so he should lose". That is flawed logic, regardless of what aspect of MMA you prefer (wrestling, ground, bjj, standup, etc). I liked it because what she said is true: "Good defense is not respected." My point is you're taking it to more of an extreme than you need too. I'm not talking about lay pray, exactly... I'm talking more about actual technical fighting to control your opponent so you can get an opening for GnP, sub attempts, elbows, or whatever. I can think of allot of fighters that use control and movement like that, even to the point of a fighter giving their opponent a false sense of security in enabling the opponent to move into a position the opponent thinks will give them an advantage, only to find that's the exact position the fighter wanted them in so they can start executing their offense. It's really neat to watch actually.  |
|
|
|
Post by The Rocketmen on Apr 3, 2013 4:32:01 GMT -5
I prefer the point about checking out the ML fights and seeing how it affects things and then making a decision based on whether or not we will keep the same system for next season.
|
|
|
|
Post by xx - Team GAP on Apr 3, 2013 8:42:39 GMT -5
but you have to realize that judges look at the entire fight and they look for Control, Damage, aggrssion, takedowns, unanswered strikes, all of which are way of winning points. No, that is my point. They do NOT take all that into account via looking at the ENTIRE FIGHT. They score rounds. So instead of getting guys trying to finish (if it matters, my preferred fight to watch is an awesome ground/BJJ fight) you get guys who gain a dominate position and hold it. Screw the damage thing, if we wanna talk BJJ/ground, let's look at it this way. 3 round fight. You take me down, and lock me into 5 GOOD submission attempts, transitioning BEAUTIFULLY from armbars, to triangle chokes, even popping up a smooth-as-hell gogoplata. Twice, I manage to escape, and stand up, but you take me down again. But I manage to escape, and lets say the last one I am probably gonna tap, but the bell saves me. Then rounds 2 and 3, I take you down once, rub my glove in your face, transition from your guard to a half guard, then back to guard, then back to half guard, then side control, then back into your guard, then half guard, then into full guard again. Can you honestly say I should win that bullshit? You took me down more times in 1 round than I did the whole fight. You almost finished the fight. And you were aggressive when you were in control. But I squeaked out the decision win because I laid on you longer. I've seen that shit too many times in the UFC and it's stupid. I think we are argueing the same thing.. as far as ground game... cause i enjoy aggressive ground fighting as well.. but if in your scenerio in rounds 2 and 3 You take me down and i'm trying to punch you in the face from my back and your just changing position and holding my arms down so i can't punch and i can't re-position myself because your stopping me... then yes you should win. I'm not advocating lay and pray to the point of ... 3 round fight between us. You pull guard and I lay on you for all three rounds doing nothing at all.. and you punch me from your back again and again and again and again.. and I win cause i was in the dominate position. I'm advocating for the guy on the bottom who is punching away.. sooo yes we are in agreement.. aggression is good whether your standing or performing ground game. That is bull shit... but Ferocity was also right though in saying defence is not appreciated or respected. In this scenerio the guy on the bottom although he's being aggressive he is in defencive position. BUT as I said earlier the judges should be recognizing all of the things that make someone win a fight and be looking for those things in a fight. aggression is only one of those things. Whether they look at those things for each round and judge or judge at the end... doesn't matter much ... but if your judging in the overall .. one good assault of punches may sit on the judges minds more instead of them thinking about each round wherer the better fighter may have won but instead he loses cause of that one minute of trouble he was in. |
|
|
|
Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Apr 3, 2013 10:39:05 GMT -5
I prefer the point about checking out the ML fights and seeing how it affects things and then making a decision based on whether or not we will keep the same system for next season. Well IMO, it's had the desired effect already, even after just 1 card. It's leveled out the playing field much better. Sure, we still have the powerhouse KOs from the bruisers, but we also saw fighters being awarded for their skills in other areas too, which we weren't seeing much of at all before switching over. I think it's great personally. |
|
|
|
Post by xx - Team GAP on Apr 4, 2013 1:27:52 GMT -5
I prefer the point about checking out the ML fights and seeing how it affects things and then making a decision based on whether or not we will keep the same system for next season. Well IMO, it's had the desired effect already, even after just 1 card. It's leveled out the playing field much better. Sure, we still have the powerhouse KOs from the bruisers, but we also saw fighters being awarded for their skills in other areas too, which we weren't seeing much of at all before switching over. I think it's great personally. we will see it more clearly the less 15 second fights we have and the more judges decisions we have. if all fights are decided without a judge then you don't see the effect and on the last card we had alot of KO's or TKO's within the first minute or two |
|
|
|
Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Apr 8, 2013 15:04:43 GMT -5
Well IMO, it's had the desired effect already, even after just 1 card. It's leveled out the playing field much better. Sure, we still have the powerhouse KOs from the bruisers, but we also saw fighters being awarded for their skills in other areas too, which we weren't seeing much of at all before switching over. I think it's great personally. we will see it more clearly the less 15 second fights we have and the more judges decisions we have. if all fights are decided without a judge then you don't see the effect and on the last card we had alot of KO's or TKO's within the first minute or two You get those in the main league too. KOs are a part of the game dude. You're not going to get around that. My point is that we've already seen it work in the case of Dawson who, to that point, had been losing on some decisions that she probably should've won. I honestly believe that if we'd still been scoring the entire fight that Draper would've likely been declared the winner on the decision just based on what we've seen previously. Again, I think it's great so far. I hope it continues this way cuz it was sure nice to see Dawson get a win for once. |
|
Ferocity
Black Belt (5th Degree)
Posts: 3,455
|
Post by Ferocity on Apr 9, 2013 19:46:17 GMT -5
sure was!
|
|
