Suggestion RE: Last Place Teams / 1st Overall Pick

[xx - Team GAP]

So let's talk here about helping out the teams that don't make gp. My suggestion is we lower the PPP of teams that don't make gp by 5 or 10.. This idea would make it so no direct points would be given but it would make it easier for a team to fight back during the next season. If your team sucks and you want to fight back. Then a lower PPP will make your hard work a bit easier

[xx - Camp Cannon]

i doubt this will go thru as was me n and phx who missed the grand prix

[xx - Team GAP]

Well last season I was second last.. And I had to do Sooooo much to make my team competitive... I just like the idea of helping out the teams that need help. Sometimes a team is on the bottom cause they need help.. Sometimes its just bad luck. But I think it is helpful to make it a bit easier for teams who don't make it to the gp. This is a suggestion that I hope is seriously looked at.

[xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club]

As much as I like the idea and the spirit behind this suggestion, this unfortunately would cause more outside issues than it's worth. Not only because we're all remaining at half PPP already for this season, but when tou get higher volume posters, such as myself and Cannon, that last finish in the last 2 positions, you'll have reaistance from the lower volume posters like LBC claiming it's too much of an advantage. The PPP is fine where it is for now, I think... what I'd personally rather see is the point values of the top two picks adjusted to 5 points for the 1st and 2 points for the 2nd.

Yea, I've heard Sandman's argument about "tanking" and the facts are these:

1) Teams finishing at the bottom obviously need the help
2) With the higher point values on the top two picks, a team can go out and obtain a more significant piece to better their team, if they're able to... and if not, then they have 5 points they can upgrade their current roster.

Now, I realize that there'd be a bit of a draw to "tank", as it were... and Sandman's contension is that it'd be Cannon that would do this. Cannon can address that head on if he chooses to, but the fact is that we can't make changes and rules or not make them based on what we think 1 GM out of 10 might do. Cannon's been solely upgrading his women for a number of seasons now and made the GP final last seaso and I don't see his motif changing all that much just cuz the 1st overall pick is worth 5 points... I could be wrong, but I don't see that happening.

So, as much as a PPP adjustment for the bottom 2 teams would seem like the route to go, I see it just causing more headache when you have a situation like we have this season where 2 high volume posters arr the bottom 2 teams.

[xx - Camp Cannon]

I wouldnt purposely tank i prefer to try n make the grandprix going from grandprix to 2lns last sucks.. tyho my team is mostly women so the better i upgrade them n faster the better my team will get..

[The Sandmen]

Part 1: The Need for a Change? Is It Broken?

On the surface, I felt there was a possible need for this change. I am not attached to the system we have now, and am not opposed to giving greater value to the worst-teams' picks. IN THEORY. However, in practice, the situation looks like this:

We have 10 teams right now. 8 make it to the GP, and the difference between spot 10 and spot 8 can be 1 win, as we have seen in the past. With more teams, we might have cause to increase the amount of points dead-last gets or something like that, but with only 10, this feels unnecessary. The only patterns I have seen in the last-place teams is Phoenix, and GAP, until GAP made some moves, upgraded his low-end fighters, and legitimized some people. GAP has fixed his team, kinda showing that anyone can do it, since that cat holds a lot of project fighters.

I am open to any changes that make sense, but here's the thing in this case. After looking into the issue....I'm not convinced this is even a problem.

Let's take some examples.

Case #1: Phoenix.

This season: 10th Place.
Last Season: 8th place.

Nate Quarry, Leslie Smith, and Rory MacDonald went winless this season with a combined 0-12 record. In the off-season, Soszynski and Grant were added. They combined for 2-6 on the season. All of that dead weight (refering to bodies that points are spread out between) was, for Phoenix, the difference between making the Grand Prix, and not.

Phoenix has 3 maxed out fighters, 2 #1 contenders, and 2 former ManMMA Champions. Phoenix was a GP finalize last year, and a heavy favourite to win. If Phoenix ONLY kept his top 3 fighters in each weight class (based on overall record), he would have made the Grand Prix this year. And this is factoring in that Cruz had a losing season (despite being a #1 contender now, and Sarah D'Alelio got hurt). You take out all the upgrades (used or not used) that go into that "dead weight" and this team is no longer a struggling team AT ALL.

Case 2: Camp Cannon.

Won the Grand Prix last season. Been in the finals in 6 of the last 7 Grand Prixs. Upgraded 1 fighter this season (and only after a rule was put in place to stop him from hoarding points)

Case #3: Team GAP

Season 8 - Last
Season 9 - Last
Season 10 - 3rd place
Seaosn 11 - 6th
Season 12 - 13th
Season 13 - 5th.

GAP upgrades his whole team, and has brought his team up consistently by upgrading his weaker fighters. He keeps a high floor on his team, and the result has paid off. Chiesa is legit, McGee is really close. Without late additions Tank Abbot and Frankie Edgar, GAP would have placed 3rd in the league. GAP also went into the GP a heavy favourite to win the GP.

If you upgrade your fighters, they get better. If you keep a small team of elite fighters (West Coast Knockouts), they remain very good, but without upgrades very slowly slip. If you keep expanding your team and adding new rookies with little to no legitimacy, your team will start to fall, or never improve.

What I am seeing here is a pattern of behaviours, rather than a consistent problem people are having. GAP used the same system we had for 3 years to build his team into what was, for most of the season, the best team in the entire league (he tanked leading into Zenith, and lost a few spots).


Part 2: The "5 Point Suggestion"

Consider: xx - Camp Cannon does a TON of work for this site. It takes him several hours a week to do it. He gets 6 points a season for that. Rewarding a team for having a TERRIBLE season by giving them 5 points is a slap in the face to the many, many hours of work he puts into the site to EARN those 6 points. Right now, he does it because I give him a truck load of points. But what incentive is there for him to do it when he can get pretty much the same number of points by ignoring his whole team, upgrading only his "hot women" and doing nothing with the rest of his team all season? Do I increase his "salary" to 12 to accommodate this "5 point suggestion"? 12 points is enough points to max out 2 stats on a fighter. To me, 12 points is game-changing. Right now, the economy works really well with 2(Draft) - 3 (GP) - 6 (Major staff pay).

If we don't increase that, we risk losing a valuable staff member, and have a broken system to boot. A broken system that has been in place for 13 seasons and has not been a problem in that time.


Part 3: The Issue of Charity and Auctions

There is no accounting for charity in any of the suggestions I have read, or the helping out we have now. This season, for example, I have moved the LW champion to a new team, and am looking to ship out 2 other elite, ranked fighters. The move of Hansen facilitated the move of a potentially-elite A-ranked fighter to the bottom place team. For peanuts.

We have seen how much charity is a game-changer, and we all do it here. Bulldozers took a charity team to the GP and won it. I think every single person in this league is currently benefiting from some form of charity. It's a big part of the site, and I think why the site works well. That and auctions - with the new auction system, shitty teams, and teams that lack depth in a position are given BIG preference in game-changer auctions as well. Yet another factor in the 180 degree turn of xx - Team GAP. You start reducing PPP, or giving more points for low draft picks, there will be some reluctance there, and the system will be inevitably more unpredictable and more imbalanced.


Part 4: Your Job in this Suggestion Thread

First, convince me the system IS broken. Right now, we saw a guy take a team from perpetual shit, to 1st place most of the season. The 2 last-please teams this season were in the GP finals JUST last season.

Second, give me suggestions that don't create problems. PPP issues xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club outlined a lot of problems with. They are a good idea in theory, but in practice, we have seen how huge a change in PPP can be. They can be a game-changer. And do you want me sitting at 20-30 PPP if I come dead last? I'd rack up about 200 points a season. Point pay-outs, I'm not sure the economy we have in place would adjust to that properly, once the ripple effect was taken into account. It seems to be game-breaking in a different way. And the charity/auction situation.

Third, if we all agree there is a serious need for change after 13 seasons of it not being a problem, we have to work out something that makes sense across the board. Even something like points have different value for different members.



Part 5: A Suggestion/Idea I Came Up With While typing the Above points

We could simply keep what we have, but exempt the fighters of the last place team(s) from FiD for the following season.

[xx - Camp Cannon]

I like the FID freeze too bad it isnt in this next season coming up

[xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club]

@The Sandmen: Honestly, if you were open to any changes to any of this Justin, you wouldn't be taking any of this as an afront to you, trying to turn it into some superiority contest.or competition and actually listen to what it does for folks instead of somehow making it all about Cannon, GAP & Phoenix FC.

I also like how you've only mentioned my last two season finishes, but neglect to mention that since I arrived here in ManMMA in season 3, I've only been in the GP 3 times; in all three I was the last seed, the rest of the time I've finished between 10th to 12th. Why not mention that in your argument? Oh, of course... if it doesn't support your argument, you'll omit it aand hope no one notices. lol

As for Cannon, his tasks, what he does for site and how much he gets compensated, has nothing to do with the draft. If he's getting 6 points for what he does every season, good for him; it's more than I ever got for doing it, but it still has nothing to do with the draft.

As for your dead weight comment, if I trimmed my team down to by the ones that had losing records this season, I would barely have a team left man... cuz save for my capped fighters, I'd have a few HWs, barely 1 MW, 2 LWs and barely 2 women. Sure, I'd have less fighters, but I'd still have to be dealing with folks going after my PPP rate because I had less fighters and I'm as active as I am on the site. There is a bit of a trade of there, but it's not worth the hassle or the headache every off season to have to fight to keep my PPP at a level where I can progress forward with my team; it's barely even worth it now with a larger roster and I still average a 10th place finish every season. You can also go after my trades with LBC all you like and point to them as a reason for that, but you were the one encouraging me to make those deals in hopes that the Conquistadors would ease off on the off season attacks on PPP by giving him better fighters to work with, and now you're trying to use that in an argument against me? That's pretty low bro...

And finally, I really do wish you could actually make these proper discussions about things instead of taking it to another level and slagging on folks teams to try and make your point; you might as well just be name calling and calling us idiots at that point, because that's all it really is at a fundamental level. So I'd appreciate you coming to the table with a more constructive coutner point, as you do all the time with us, so that we can have a progressive discussion on a topic instead of the "I'm better than you" diatribe that you always seem to get on when we have discussions on things.

[xx - Team GAP]

Cannons points for doing work is a bonus on top of whatever points the rest of the league can have. Phoenix.. What is your suggestion?
When anyone claims there is a problem... Then obviously there is a problem in someone's eyes... So a existing problem doesn't have to be proved. I mentioned that there was a problem a few seasons ago.. It was ignored. I still want something to happen. Let's work on this.

[xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club]

Mar 15, 2015 12:03:04 GMT -5 xx - Team GAP said:

Cannons points for doing work is a bonus on top of whatever points the rest of the league can have. Phoenix.. What is your suggestion?
When anyone claims there is a problem... Then obviously there is a problem in someone's eyes... So a existing problem doesn't have to be proved. I mentioned that there was a problem a few seasons ago.. It was ignored. I still want something to happen. Let's work on this.

My suggestion was increasing the value of the top two picks (1st = 4-5 points; 2nd = 2-3 points) so that those teams can actually either upgrade their current fighters more significantly or have a more substantial trading piece to possibly have the ability to go out and obtain a better fighter through trade. With the current way it is, the 2 points is nothing in terms of being able to trade because all it is, is a body off the FA list or a small upgrade to one fighter, basically. The top picks should be worth more than that and actually help a team get better when they miss the GP, not just stay the same.

[The Sandmen]

Mar 15, 2015 11:25:33 GMT -5 xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club said:

you wouldn't be taking any of this as an afront to you,

...lol, I'm clearly not. You keep saying it over and over again though. Certainly not making it any truer, and just kinda makes it look like you have nothing really to say here, since I am trying to discuss the "issue", and you keep making it about me. You would do well to stop this silliness and focus on what you want accomplished instead of fabricating obvious gibberish.

Mar 15, 2015 12:03:04 GMT -5 xx - Team GAP said:

When anyone claims there is a problem... Then obviously there is a problem in someone's eyes... So a existing problem doesn't have to be proved.

Looking forward to Lord Byron's Conquistadors seeing this and starting up on "Phoenix gets too many points" claims again. Since you just said if anyone says there is a problem, there is one, you just gave Byron a hell of a leg to stand on. Not sure Kruze will appreciate that, GAPPY boy.

Mar 15, 2015 12:03:04 GMT -5 xx - Team GAP said:

Cannons points for doing work is a bonus on top of whatever points the rest of the league can have.

It's not a bonus. It's payment for work he does. It is currently a high-paying job. You have not addressed or fixed this issue simply by saying it is bonus. If what you said above is true, "Someone saying there is a problem means there is one", I am telling you, giving the last place team the same amount of points as a guy who puts a lot of work into the site and gets paid for his work is a big problem.



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Also, I like how both of you completely ignored my suggested fix. Especially Phoenix, who just keeps going on about how I'm not open to any changes, etc. Kinda makes it seem like you are not interested in a fix, but just want to be on about things.

If that is untrue, then discuss the FiD freeze suggestion. Tell us why it does or does not work.

[Lord Byron's Conquistadors]

imma be honest i read 3 things here gap suggestion phx suggestion and sandmen suggestion. gap suggestion don help me none when im last. phx does. sandmens does. but what if sandmens was tradeable so if i wanted to trade it to someone for 5 points for the season then its like we do sandmens and phxs suggestion and everyone happy???

[Lord Byron's Conquistadors]

whos hit sandmen posted more shit when i was typin. my reply wasn to that it was jus to the 3 suggesiosn i read.

[Ferocity]

Do the last place teams feel they need help? I am at the bottom half of the league, but I don't feel like I need help, I eel like I need to stop being lazy and do more if I want my team to do more.

[Lord Byron's Conquistadors]

Mar 15, 2015 15:43:58 GMT -5 Ferocity said:

Do the last place teams feel they need help? I am at the bottom half of the league, but I don't feel like I need help, I eel like I need to stop being lazy and do more if I want my team to do more.

i been last place lots times. i didn have no problems cause it was my fault fo rtradin good guys and it don matter to me if im last i just come back better next year like a warrior.