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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Dec 15, 2015 23:27:27 GMT -5
this is fine as is no need to do phxs shit and heres why. strikeforce champ was automatically ufc champ when she came up but invicta champs are not automatically ufc champs or even get ufc belts. champs should be disctinguished men or women this makes sense to me go with it. That wasn't the whole gist of the opposition to it either Byron. Even if you don't agree with Invicta being in the mix, there's no need to be doing it at this time because the fighters that will be affected by it are already the elite fighters in the league, this will just be overkill at this point. It's too soon to be giving these already elite fighters such a huge advantage at this point unless the rest of the gals get a bump too. Sure, you have Esparza, but all the rest of you girls will be left behind even further than they already are; something that you've been adamant about not wanting to be for many seasons now. This new proposal is exactly what that does... Rousey; uncapped. Holm; uncapped. Cyborg; uncapped. Coenen; uncapped. Tate; uncapped. Kaufman's cap goes up. All fighters that have been at the top or near the top already, and most since the beginning of the league... Now we're giving them even more of an advantage than they already have hen we have fighters like Esparza still struggling? How does that make sense to you? Fuck off Leahy  |
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Post by The Mighty Ducks on Dec 16, 2015 8:46:04 GMT -5
stop
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Post by The Sandmen on Dec 16, 2015 8:53:13 GMT -5
..not trying to get back into the debate, I'm just curious for some clarification, xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club. What's the difference between upping everyone to 79 and the champs to 80 vs. JUST upping the champs to 79? The champs you are saying don't need more of an advantage are still getting 1 level higher then the others. |
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Dec 16, 2015 14:49:36 GMT -5
..not trying to get back into the debate, I'm just curious for some clarification, xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club. What's the difference between upping everyone to 79 and the champs to 80 vs. JUST upping the champs to 79? The champs you are saying don't need more of an advantage are still getting 1 level higher then the others. I've explained this already  lol But: Most of them already are representative of their real life potentials. Take a look... Cris Cyborg (Knockouts) - Former 3x Dominant Champion Sarah Kaufman (Ferocity) - Current Champion & 3x Champion Marloes Coenen (Ducks) - Former Champion Ronda Rousey (Cannon) - Former Champion Holly Holm (Cannon) - Former Champion & Current #1 Contender Miesha Tate (Sandmen) - Capped Joanna Jędrzejczyk (Bullies) - Former Dominant Champion Carla Esparza (Conquistadors) - Likely the only one that needs the most help What pressing need is there to do this when only two of those listed have never been champion or dominant already in our league? I really don't see a need for it unless you're going to raise the regular women's cap too. It just doesn't make any sense at all when your reasoning for wanting to do this is already happening for the most part. I mean, you're always saying that these suggestions made by anyone else should be solving a problem. Well, what problem is raising the RL champions cap solving exactly? The RL Champions in question, save for Tate & Esparza, are already contenders/champions here and already fighting at their potentials at the current cap, which is what you said was the reasoning for proposing this in the first place, then what pressing need is there to raise the cap and, thusly, uncapping Cyborg, Coenen, Rousey, Holm & Tate, when really only one of them (Tate) isn't fighting at their potential, and even then, Tate still wins more than she loses, in general... or, at the very least, she's breaking even. So, it really doesn't make any sense to do this unless you're going to raise the cap for the rest of the women too cuz if these RL champions are already fighting at their potential, it puts the rest of the women in the league at an even bigger disadvantage than they already are because these IRL Champions are so dominant already, and they'll be getting uncapped. |
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Post by The Sandmen on Dec 16, 2015 15:07:40 GMT -5
Yes, but how is it different for you if we raise everyone else AND allow those women to upgrade again? They are still 1 overall better, and they are still "representative of their potential".
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Post by xx - Camp Cannon on Dec 16, 2015 16:14:46 GMT -5
well Holm is capped and lost to kaufman who isn't then in turn won the belt.. so if holm get an extra probably just 1 upgrade even tho she doesn't need it than thats a bonus..
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Dec 16, 2015 16:34:34 GMT -5
Yes, but how is it different for you if we raise everyone else AND allow those women to upgrade again? They are still 1 overall better, and they are still "representative of their potential". I didn't say it was about me at all. It's about what's fair for everyone. I understand that you want to have these champions at a higher overall than the rest of the girls, and that's fine... BUT the fact is that they don't need it right now because they are already fighting at a level "representative of their potential" compared to the rest of the gals. If the rest of the girls were all fighting at that high of a level already, and the belt was changing hands to an assortment of different fighters every other card or whatever, then it would make sense, but, as it sits right now, we don't have that yet... especially in the bantamweight division, which all those gals that would be getting uncapped are in. Plus, all but Tate have been champion, but they are all annual contenders at any given time already every season. If you do this right now, without giving everyone else some sort of a boost as well, then it's going to be even longer and more difficult for the rest of the women to even compete, let alone win anything. There's just no basis or reason to do it right now since the idea behind it is already happening. Maybe in 2-3 seasons it would be warranted, but as it sits currently, it's not, for what you claim is the desired outcome, because that outcome is already happening right now without it. So, being that as it is, the difference between just upping champions to 79 now as opposed to upping the girls to 79 and the champions to 80, would be that the rest of the women would have an equal opportunity to grow a little further while we still progress forward to having a staggered tier of champions and non-champions, being that these RL Champions that would be getting uncapped are already representative of their potential currently. It basically comes down to doing it for everyone so it's fair for everyone in the league, or not doing it at all right now and putting it off until it's actually needed. Cuz as of right now, it's not needed with those RL Champions already fighting at their potential at this current moment. |
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Post by The Sandmen on Dec 16, 2015 16:42:41 GMT -5
I understand all that, but you have not been pushing for the cap increase across the board INSTEAD of the champion increase, you have been talking about it AS WELL as the champion increase, and that is where I am getting confused. I understand upping the women and NOT the champions, but I do not understand the logic behind upping both.
Now the issue of upping the regular fighters and NOT the champions. We'll do that once the situation warrents it. Since we still have a huge gap in the women's division (especially BW) there is no point upping any caps until the division as a whole starts to level out and there are a bunch of top contenders. Otherwise, the good get better and the rest get farther behind. Basically the only people that would benefit from a league-wide cap increase are Miesha Tate and Sarah D'Alelio - the capped fighters that are not upgraded as well as the other capped females.
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Dec 16, 2015 17:19:32 GMT -5
I understand all that, but you have not been pushing for the cap increase across the board INSTEAD of the champion increase, you have been talking about it AS WELL as the champion increase, and that is where I am getting confused. I understand upping the women and NOT the champions, but I do not understand the logic behind upping both. Now the issue of upping the regular fighters and NOT the champions. We'll do that once the situation warrents it. Since we still have a huge gap in the women's division (especially BW) there is no point upping any caps until the division as a whole starts to level out and there are a bunch of top contenders. Otherwise, the good get better and the rest get farther behind. Basically the only people that would benefit from a league-wide cap increase are Miesha Tate and Sarah D'Alelio - the capped fighters that are not upgraded as well as the other capped females. Well, you're confusing yourself then... lol because what you proposed was only upping the cap for those RL champions to be "representative of their potential", when they already are currently... and as you alluded to, Tate would be the only one that would really benefit from a champions cap increase. I also don't understand your logic in upping the women and NOT the champions, because the opposite would be true and it'd really only be D'Alelio that would benefit most from that. Whereas, if you do both, it breaks down like this: 1) You get your staggered tier of champions (80) & non-champions (79), like you wanted, but also allows the rest of the women to to grow with the champions instead of being left totally behind. 2) All caps get lifted, benefiting everyone that has capped fighters or fighters that are nearing the current cap, not just the RL Champions that are already dominant in the league. It also benefits everyone in that the cap is raised for regular fighters that won't get beyond a certain point. 3) It keeps the levels from getting too out of hand in having the already dominant RL champions in the league that are the only ones being uncapped; everyone gets one. That's what that does, in a nutshell. Just to explain that completely... and to me, it's clear that it's either that or keep everything as it is for now, because only allowing the RL champions to be uncapped at this stage really discourages competition at this point when, as you said there is still a wide gap in the bantamweight division, which is the division that would be most affected by only the champions cap being upped. |
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Post by The Sandmen on Dec 16, 2015 17:59:36 GMT -5
...maybe this will help clarify the problem for you, since you can't understand the problem without some concrete information in front of you.
The average female fighter here is 65. Our champions have been anywhere from 72 to 78. To take a female from average to contender takes about 28-35 ugprades. What you keep proposing would see the distance from that average woman to the cap go from about 52 (already a huge number) to 60. With our new point payout system, literally an extra month of upgrading.
Just simply increasing everyone's cap across the board and ignoring the champions part would increase the distance the average fighter has to be upgraded to catch up to ALL 10 capped fighters by 4 points (2 weeks of exclusive upgrading). The suggestion, as pitched, would only affect 4 of those capped fighters (ALL of whom arehave been beaten by uncapped fighters just this season.)
The impact of the original suggestion (Champions-only) has FAR less impact than increasing the cap of the whole league.
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Dec 16, 2015 18:36:54 GMT -5
...maybe this will help clarify the problem for you, since you can't understand the problem without some concrete information in front of you. The average female fighter here is 65. Our champions have been anywhere from 72 to 78. To take a female from average to contender takes about 28-35 ugprades. What you keep proposing would see the distance from that average woman to the cap go from about 52 (already a huge number) to 60. With our new point payout system, literally an extra month of upgrading. Just simply increasing everyone's cap across the board and ignoring the champions part would increase the distance the average fighter has to be upgraded to catch up to ALL 10 capped fighters by 4 points (2 weeks of exclusive upgrading). The suggestion, as pitched, would only affect 4 of those capped fighters (ALL of whom arehave been beaten by uncapped fighters just this season.) The impact of the original suggestion (Champions-only) has FAR less impact than increasing the cap of the whole league. It's not less impact at all because what you're suggesting makes the distance even further on the champions that are already way further ahead than those 65s you're trying to make a case for not upping all the women. There's no problem with the current cap as it sits right now if all you're looking at is them being "representative of their potential" because that's exactly what's already happening. Those 4 capped fighters do affect the entire league as it sits right now already, it doesn't matter if an uncapped fighter has beat them or not. That's irrelevant. Like I said, if there was more parity and the title was changing hands between a vaster score of different fighters, then that would be different... but that's not the case here. We're still having the title being passed around between virtually the same fighters in the bantamweight division still. Coenen & Holm breaking through doesn't constitute as a vast score of new fighters, especially when they are currently capped and you're suggesting that their caps be lifted. But by giving everyone a boost in cap, not just the champions, that atleast gives everyone the potential to grow into the new cap(s) rather than give just the already dominant fighters even more of an advantage than they already have and keep it just as lopsided, if not more, than it already is. |
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Post by The Sandmen on Dec 16, 2015 19:13:28 GMT -5
You keep arguing things that are irrelevant. Primarily this "the good fighters are fighting up to their potential". That's not the point at all. We established it was irrelevant when we implemented the men's tiered cap system. Irrelevant then, irrelevant now.
Second, stop repeating this "if you can upgrade everyone by one it makes sense to upgrade the champs by 2". The logic is absurd. The champs are still 1 above everyone else, just like I am suggesting, and the gap between the averages and the 10 capped will just increase - not to mention the champs.
Third, when we implimented the male cap system, you argued until you were blue in the balls for a women's tiered cap system. Now I give you one, and you don't want it?
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Dec 16, 2015 19:32:11 GMT -5
You keep arguing things that are irrelevant. Primarily this "the good fighters are fighting up to their potential". That's not the point at all. We established it was irrelevant when we implemented the men's tiered cap system. Irrelevant then, irrelevant now. Second, stop repeating this "if you can upgrade everyone by one it makes sense to upgrade the champs by 2". The logic is absurd. The champs are still 1 above everyone else, just like I am suggesting, and the gap between the averages and the 10 capped will just increase - not to mention the champs. Third, when we implimented the male cap system, you argued until you were blue in the balls for a women's tiered cap system. Now I give you one, and you don't want it? 1) If it's so irrelevant, then why was that YOUR OWN reasoning for only wanting to up the RL champions. Do I need to quote you again? 2) It's just as absurd to want to only up the RL champions right when they're all still at the top of ManMMA right now, regarless of whether they've had an uncapped fighter beat them once or not. Especially when the majority of the capped fighters are those champions. It defeats the purpose of having put in a cap in the first place which was to allow the rest of the women to catch up... Even just doing the champions widens that gap even further than it already is 3) I didn't want the tiered male system either, if you recall. I did ask for a women's tiered system if you were going to force through the men's, AND even compiled a list of fighters both from the list we're using for the men and from world MMA rankings, which was shit on and ignored by you. This is NOT what I'd call a tiered system comparable to the men's at all... this is simply uncapping the already dominant fighters in the league to keep them at the top when we haven't seen much of a showing of parity at all yet. It's too soon... so if you're going to widen the gap anyways by only upping the champions, then you've basically eliminated any competition in the bantamweight division for the belt, except for those that are already there. That's why all the women should get the an increase, not just the champions. |
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Post by The Sandmen on Dec 16, 2015 19:42:15 GMT -5
1) As I told you before, YOU misunderstood the quote you quoted. I was refering to their potential in terms of how much you could upgrade them. It has NOTHING to do with how they are currently performing. Again, see men. 2) And yet, you want to go with 2 overalls for champs, not just the proposed 1. Innnnnnnteresting. 3) Exactly. You didn't want the men, yet the men are working great right now, and you don;t want it with the women, and we have no reason to believe it will be any less successful then the men. I was on the fence for a bit, but after looking at it in the context of the average female fighter, it really does make the most sense, since it only affects 4 people, most of whom are under-performing anyways. Glad we had this talk, it helped cement my own feelings on the subject  We can move on with our lives now. Feel free to post more below, but I think I'm done here. |
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Dec 16, 2015 19:52:09 GMT -5
1) As I told you before, YOU misunderstood the quote you quoted. I was refering to their potential in terms of how much you could upgrade them. It has NOTHING to do with how they are currently performing. Again, see men. 2) And yet, you want to go with 2 overall sfor champs, not just the proposed 1. INteresting. 3) Exactly. You didn't want the men, yet the men are working great right now, and you don;t want it with the women, and we have no reason to believe it will be any less successful then the men. I was on the fence for a bit, but after looking at it in the context of the average female fighter, it really does make the most sense, since it only affects 4 people, most of whom are under-performing anyways. Glad we had this talk, it helped cement my own feelings on the subject We can move on with our lives now. Feel free to post more below, but I think I'm done here. 1) I understand that end of things, but 2) If it's to the benefit of all the women in the league and not just a select few that don't need it right now, then yes, absolutely. Cuz as I said before, the only fighter that increasing only the champions benefits is Tate, and the rest of the league suffers because the others Coenen, Holm & Rousey get to continue on their merry way with no real chance of catching them ever, if what you're saying is true about the 65s. 3) I still don't like the men's system and this women's proposal's even worse because it defeats the purpose we instituted the cap in the first place. You even said yourself that you were reluctant to put the women's suggestion in. So, honestly, I suggest we just scrap the suggestion all together and keep it as it is for because increasing only the champions right now DOES NOT benefit the entire league, only the 4 fighters being uncapped, that don't need it right now because they are still on top as it sits currently. All this does is make the gap even further than it is, which you claim not to want, yet you're going to push this shit through too. |
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lol But:
Have 9 points in celebration of this monumental achievement!