Coaches

[The Sandmen]

And I'm confused because I find Phoenix's arguments self contradictory, as he says this on one post:

Oct 5, 2016 9:12:59 GMT -5 xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club said:

You're making it too expensive with little to no benefit to anyone's team at all. Oooo... I wasted 10 points to get one stat upgrade... No thanks. I get more value out of those 10 points allocating them myself.

Then this on another:

Oct 5, 2016 10:09:45 GMT -5 xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club said:

Not only that, but teams like yours (The Sandmen), under the new points system, that are always at a surplus more often than not, gives them an unfair advantage on top of already having point surpluses. I mean, isn't this exact type of thing that we were trying to prevent in reverting to the new points system? Now you're you're to suggest going back to giving teams advantages... That seems backwards to me.

I'm still confused. Are you saying it's pointless to have a coach, or a huge, game-breaking advantage? Because you have said both now.

[The Sandmen]

Oct 5, 2016 16:10:18 GMT -5 xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club said:

Folks can just sit there and do nothing with their fighters and just upgrade their coach so that all their fighters get upgrades...

FOUND IT! This is where our miscommunication came in!

The suggestion I had had no coach upgrades involved. It was just a simple "12 points for a coach, 5 point pay-out each season - and with those 5 points, you do what you want". Something with that general number. There would be no huge "coaches auto-allocate points to fighters" crap.

Now your argument makes more sense, and I hope you can see that my suggestion makes more sense in that light as well. People would still have to decide where to spend their coach-points, and on whom.

[xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club]

Oct 5, 2016 15:58:32 GMT -5 The Texas Rattlesnakes said:

The short form is PHX doesn't like coaching idea, Sandmen asks why,PHX attempts to explain why, Sandmen points out why his explanation is incorrect, PHX gets angry and then the site has a bad vibe. But I do understand what PHX is saying.

Lmao I'm not mad at anything... I called exactly what would happen and what Sandman would do if I engaged in this discussion, and I was 100% accurate. :-P Can't be mad when you knew it would happen.

[xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club]

Oct 5, 2016 16:14:40 GMT -5 The Sandmen said:

Oct 5, 2016 16:10:18 GMT -5 xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club said:

Folks can just sit there and do nothing with their fighters and just upgrade their coach so that all their fighters get upgrades...

FOUND IT! This is where our miscommunication came in!

The suggestion I had had no coach upgrades involved. It was just a simple "12 points for a coach, 5 point pay-out each season - and with those 5 points, you do what you want". Something with that general number. There would be no huge "coaches auto-allocate points to fighters" crap.

Now your argument makes more sense, and I hope you can see that my suggestion makes more sense in that light as well. People would still have to decide where to spend their coach-points, and on whom.

It doesn't matter if upgrades to the coach are involved or not... There was a suggestion of that as well, and you even mentioned it yourself, or I wouldn't have even brought it up. If you're going to make it so that everyone gets a coach and the 5 points every off season, and none of this "pay 12 points" for it crap, then do it and make it fair for everyone, and not put teams into debt if they want a coach but can't afford it.

[The Sandmen]

Between now and the end of season though, every team can easily save 12 points if they want. Coaches are just yet another way to give teams options. And, as Bullies said, keep a focus on MMA as a fuller, more fleshed out process.

[xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club]

Oct 5, 2016 17:15:14 GMT -5 The Sandmen said:

Between now and the end of season though, every team can easily save 12 points if they want. Coaches are just yet another way to give teams options. And, as Bullies said, keep a focus on MMA as a fuller, more fleshed out process.

That's just it though Justin... Not everyone can do that without sacrificing their season, if they actually care about wanting to do well.

The fuller, more fleshed out MMA options/process is all well and good, when you can afford it and can coast for 5-6 weeks... For a number of teams, that's actually not, or atleast shouldn't be, an option if they actually care about how they finish the season or want to do well in the GP, if they're fourtunate enough to be there. Hamstringing them like this isn't fair, because you're putting them into a "damned if they do; damned if they don't" situation... Cuz they can either possibly sacrifice a salvageable season, spend their points and go into debt with the league for a fucking coach or say to hell with it and sit on their hands for the rest of the season and do nothing with their team. That's bullshit dude. I'm sorry. It just is...

[The Mighty Ducks]

are we forgetting that teams also still get points during the off-season weekly? no? carry on then?

[xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club]

Oct 5, 2016 18:07:08 GMT -5 The Mighty Ducks said:

are we forgetting that teams also still get points during the off-season weekly? no? carry on then?

No one's forgotten anything Ducks... Least of all that. That's actually just irrelevant, really. Teams just shouldn't be forced to choose between upgrading their fighters currently or face going into debt with the league if they don't have the points for a coach when the time comes. It's ridiculous.

[The Rocketmen]

no, what's ridiculous is assuming that this is being forced down your throat instead of just being another aspect that directly relates to the sport. we fight during the season, keeping our guys healthy and updated, and during the off-season they do intense training that could lead to benefits (a few extra points). our only currency here is points that we get every week, so spending those on another aspect of the "game" makes sense as an avenue.

if you don't want it, don't use it. if you want it, save and use it. why is this such a big deal? it's interesting, it, again, is a direct relationship to elements of the sport, and it is workable on the site.

poll it?

[xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club]

Oct 5, 2016 18:49:26 GMT -5 The Rocketmen said:

no, what's ridiculous is assuming that this is being forced down your throat instead of just being another aspect that directly relates to the sport. we fight during the season, keeping our guys healthy and updated, and during the off-season they do intense training that could lead to benefits (a few extra points). our only currency here is points that we get every week, so spending those on another aspect of the "game" makes sense as an avenue.

if you don't want it, don't use it. if you want it, save and use it. why is this such a big deal? it's interesting, it, again, is a direct relationship to elements of the sport, and it is workable on the site.

poll it?

Have you seriously missed over half of this conversation dude? No one is arguing that it isn't an aspect of the sport. Pay attention already or shut the fuck up. lol. Cuz seriously... If it's not fair for everyone, and most of what's been proposed isn't, then other avenues need to be explored if a majority of folks want coaches.

If there was one option proposed that is fair, it was the last one: "everyone gets a free coach at the draft". Everyone gets the same thing... No arguing; no bullshit that this thread has turned into because someone has an opinion that's in oppositon to how it looks as if it's going to be structured, whether it be upgradeable coaches, real coaches, purchased coaches. All of which discourages current upgrading of fighters for the remainder of this season, into the GP, and/or possibly into next season if we're doing the credit system and folks just don't get there salary point for 5-6 weeks to start the season, unless you've already hoarded the points already, which many teams haven't.

[The Sandmen]

Oct 5, 2016 18:49:26 GMT -5 The Rocketmen said:

poll it?

I'm going to make a cleaned up version of the suggestion so all questions are answered IN the suggestion, so people know what we are talking about. Talking to 3 different people, they all think something completely different is happening with this suggestion, so I'll make one clean presentation and post that ("as is") as a new suggestion and we will go from there. That way we are not spending 5 pages arguing about hypotheticals. We can actually see actual costs, points, payouts, etc.

[xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club]

Oct 5, 2016 20:07:30 GMT -5 The Sandmen said:

Oct 5, 2016 18:49:26 GMT -5 The Rocketmen said:

poll it?

I'm going to make a cleaned up version of the suggestion so all questions are answered IN the suggestion, so people know what we are talking about. Talking to 3 different people, they all think something completely different is happening with this suggestion, so I'll make one clean presentation and post that ("as is") as a new suggestion and we will go from there. That way we are not spending 5 pages arguing about hypotheticals. We can actually see actual costs, points, payouts, etc.

You asked for opinions and wanted discussion... It shouldn't be considered an arguement the moment there's valid oppositon to a proposal or suggestion, which it was taken as here. There really shouldn't be much cost, if any at all, due to the reason I've listed here in this thread. You may not agree, but the fact is that 10-12 points is too much for most teams when not everyone can just let it ride for 5-6 weeks, just hoping they do ok without any points for that period time and it's also going to put teams that haven't hoarded points at disadvantage either saving that many points to the end of the season, discouraging upgrades to their fighters on the home stretch or it transfers over to the beginning of next season and they owe the league... Either way isn't good for those teams that aren't at 10+ points already. Not to mention our fighters, who are supposed to be the star attractions, only cost 2 points... I get the coaches being a bit more since they're the 'expert trainers', but making them worth like 500% more, is insane man. There's gotta be a better solution than 12 points.

[The Sandmen]

Because of our typical text-based miscommunications, you spent 3-5 hours providing valid opposition to something I was not proposing. This is why I'm going to make a very clear proposal in a new thread. Then you can clearly direct the problems you have with it to a specific point that is actually applicable to what is being discussed.

If you have decided you are opposed to the suggestion before it's even written, I guess that is fine, but any further discussion about it here now is useless. I'll post the new suggestion either tonight or tomorrow morning. Then it can be discussed with the correct/appropriate specifics there.

[The Sandmen]

Last question here, before I post my whole detailed suggestion.

xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club - your main issue has been the cost (of 10-12 points). If the most expensive coach was 7 points, does that change anything for you? If you can get the best coach for 7, a good coach for 4, and just simply A coach for 1, does that improve it for you at all?

[xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club]

Oct 6, 2016 8:14:08 GMT -5 The Sandmen said:

Last question here, before I post my whole detailed suggestion.

xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club - your main issue has been the cost (of 10-12 points). If the most expensive coach was 7 points, does that change anything for you? If you can get the best coach for 7, a good coach for 4, and just simply A coach for 1, does that improve it for you at all?

Well, I still don't think they're needed at this point, even though I understand the realism behind having them etc., but yeah... That's a BETTER price point, but really, if you want it to actually be fair for everyone, the last option of giving the them out as a free pick is the best option, especially at this point in the season when teams are vying for the GP and their points would be better suited going into their actual fighters than saving points for a coach. It still discourages fighter upgrading to close out the season, as far as I'm concerned, and, because it's new, the focus is being put on the coaches now when the fighters are supposed to be the main attractions, not the coaches.

But, if you're adamant about having a price point and tiered coaches, I'd say 5, 3, 1 would be the course I'd go there. The top coach would still be valuable, but you're not getting into the issue of having the coaches worth more than some A-ranked fighters as well.