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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Oct 7, 2016 23:10:04 GMT -5
1) it still favors the teams that have or have been able to hoard/stockpile points for whatever reason. And, like it or not, most of those teams are the fairly stacked teams in the league already. That's just a fact. 2) I'm still seeing it as discouraging current fighter upgrades to a degree since it's a new thing and most folks will either be saving to get one or go into debt to get one at the draft, which, to me, does a disservice to teams that actually need the fighter upgrades more than they need a coach still, but you don't want to get left behind and not have one, and put yourself at a disadvantage. It's still a damned if you do and damned if you don't senario, and I, quite frankly, don't like that aspect of it at all. 3) There's only 1 shot at getting Jackson & Winklejohn, for one lucky team, when the reality is that these coaches can and do train fighters from different fight teams all the time. Why are they exclusive to one fight team? That makes no sense to me. So, yah... I still like the idea of everyone just gets a coach for free and it's up to them whether they activate/upgrade their coach with 1-5(7), whatever it is the max would be. That way everyone has an equal and fair opportunity to have a top coach, and it places more option and control; in the hands of the individual teams, rather than have any advantages or disadvantages in having these tiered coaches exclusive to one fight team. Just my opinion. 1) a) That is not a fact, that is a statement of your opinion. Facts include things like numbers (for example, FACT is if the draft were held RIGHT NOW, only 4 teams could not afford the best coach outright. That is forgetting things like the loan system I offered, and the return people could get if they drafted points with their 2 picks). b) What do you count as a "stacked team"? In everyone's opinion, your team will never be stacked, because you like fighters who were never legit champions - fighters like Jason MacDonald, Ryan Bader, and Mac Danzig. If you are going by names, your team is sparse of talent, and that is of your own choosing. Someone like KNockouts, however, is stacked based on names, and he is currently in 11th place. So any mention of "stacked" is 100% moot in this league. If you want to talk about records or standings, those are facts. "Stacked" is not a fact, it is an opinion. 2) This statement implies that "we" as the league know what is better for an individual team than the team does. To NOT put this in place because "people will use it when they should be upgrading a fighter" is insane. I felt you SHOULD have been upgrading Cat Zingano or Julie Kedzie when you kept fine-tuning Sarah D'Alelio instead. Did you give any shits? So why should other teams care about this point now. It's their team, they should be allowed to make these decisions, no? 3) a) You said it yourself right there. LUCK. LUCK, not "available points" or "stacked team" will determine who GETS THE OPTION IF THEY WANT IT to buy Jackson-Winklejohn. b) What you describe in the second half of your #3 is training camps. We have those. You hate those too. 4) Your desire for free points, I mean coaches, has been noted. But it is not happening. We had free coaches for 4.5 years that did nothing. Now this suggestion is about coaches that DO something. There is a cost to that. You get 2 free points a week. It's time to make some decisions and actually earn additional points. Not rely on Justin to just hand them out via free coaches for everyone. 1) a) It's not opinion, it's fact. No matter how much you try to deflect and stray from it. lol There is 4 teams that couldn't afford the top coach if the draft was held right now. That was never a point of contention. But it discourages upgrading with the teams that have the points now. They're likely only going to go down and spend up to the 7 points for the chance at getting Jackson & Winklejohn, and, quite frankly, the only coaches worth having that you listed... (<---Note: Actual opinion) Your loan system, while gracious in a sense, still puts teams behind the eight ball cuz they get their coach, great.. But they can't upgrade any of their fighters for nearly 1/3 of a season because of it, if the go full pull. All for 5 points next off season that goes down every season after. How is that actually worth it? ...for anyone. b) Stacked teams aren't just names bud. There's ManMMA fighters that are not names, but still champions here. Again, another mechanism for you to try and deflect from the issue. Nice try, but that renders your entire rant there the moot part. lol Next. 2) No... It doesn't imply anything except that you claim it does. lol You're also implying that you know better than anyone else here what would be the best course of action to take here with your list and coach tiers. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.  Funny shit. I also find it funny that you're trying to make this some sort of a personal thing by mentioning my team anf my fighters. Nothing of what I said had anything to do with that... Again, deflecting... Hilarious. And, for the record, I was upgrading both Kedzie & Zingano while I was fine tuning D'Alelio... For those actually keeping score and not trying to make a point with no base behind them. But yes, teams should be allowed to make their own decisions, but not based on your essentilly fabricated list of what you think it should be... Hence the suggestion of the free coach and teams choose/upgrade their own coach as they see fit as oppose to the current "suggestion". 3) a) Shouldn't really come down to luck when it comes to coaches if you truly want to keep things fair in ManMMA. b) Well, if you actually to think that, then why the fuck do we need coaches? lol 4) This was never about free points... Ever. If you ever actually listened to anything, you'd honestly see that. All you see is the word free and you get your pantys in a bunch thinking it's about some fucking free hand out, and it's not. Yes, the coach itself is the free part, but no one would get anything unless they upgraded the coach with atleast 1 point. It's far more even and less contrived than this suggestion is... Plus it gives the teams full control of the coach they have for they're team through upgrades instead of picking your own contrived list beyond Jackson & Winklejohn. |
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Post by The Sandmen on Oct 7, 2016 23:43:28 GMT -5
1) a) Does anyone here sound discouraged? At this point, I think you are the only one against it. Most people are in favour of the coaches. Plus, as I said elsewhere...it's not up to you to tell people who or when they "should" upgrade. It is, however, up to ManMMA as a site and community to give people as many options and simulated MMA experiences as possible. Coaches do that.
b) You brought up "stacked teams". Define stacked, please. Also include what teams are "stacked". Then we can take a look at the facts of how many points those teams have, and where they sit in the standings. As I said, ACTUAL facts, not KruzeFactz.
2) I don't even think YOU know what you are talking about with this rant of a point. This particular suggestion came form 7 pages of league input. The list itself came from about 15 different sites of the top MMA coaches of all time, in the world. There were several consensuses. The list is in no way "fabricated", as you so eloquently misused that word.
3) a) Then it should not come down to luck when we have a draft every off-season. Those teams get 2 points with the first overall pick. We don't really hear much of an uproar over that "unfairness" now, do we?
b) Because coaches are different than camps. Why do I even need to say this? Do you honestly not know the answers to these questions? Maybe that's the problem...
4) Good, then stop mentioning free coaches. I have outlined in detail several times why they make no sense, and are not happening. Every single time you mention them, you are, in your words, "deflecting", since they are not a part of this discussion, and not something I am willing to incorporate into ManMMA.
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Oct 8, 2016 0:22:42 GMT -5
1) a) Does anyone here sound discouraged? At this point, I think you are the only one against it. Most people are in favour of the coaches. Plus, as I said elsewhere...it's not up to you to tell people who or when they "should" upgrade. It is, however, up to ManMMA as a site and community to give people as many options and simulated MMA experiences as possible. Coaches do that. b) You brought up "stacked teams". Define stacked, please. Also include what teams are "stacked". Then we can take a look at the facts of how many points those teams have, and where they sit in the standings. As I said, ACTUAL facts, not KruzeFactz. 2) I don't even think YOU know what you are talking about with this rant of a point. This particular suggestion came form 7 pages of league input. The list itself came from about 15 different sites of the top MMA coaches of all time, in the world. There were several consensuses. The list is in no way "fabricated", as you so eloquently misused that word. 3) a) Then it should not come down to luck when we have a draft every off-season. Those teams get 2 points with the first overall pick. We don't really hear much of an uproar over that "unfairness" now, do we? b) Because coaches are different than camps. Why do I even need to say this? Do you honestly not know the answers to these questions? Maybe that's the problem... 4) Good, then stop mentioning free coaches. Free coaches are not happening. Every single time you mention them, you are, in your words, "deflecting", since they are not a part of this discussion, and not something I am willing to incorporate into ManMMA. 1) a) Apparently not, since Byron's come at you already with a bit of opposition too. b) I did... once again, you don't read shit all. 2) Your "interpretation" of league input. I know full well what I'm talking about, but you obviously don't (even though I've explained it several times already) But you'd rather slag on me rather than have a real discussion. Bravo. 3) a) Coaches aren't fighters. This is a completely different animal, yet you're still trying to compare apples to oranges. b) No, you're the problem... as usual. Twisting my words around to further your own agenda. The fact is that real life coaches do coach fighters from different fight teams... it does happen. So for you to sit there and say it's like training camp is honestly laughable. Especially in this particular format where training camps are for specific skills, the coaches are not. So I stand by my original statement that if you think that they're the same thing, then why bother having coaches? 4) You're so hung up on the word free, it's astounding. Pull your head out of your ass for once in your life! Forget your stupid list for a second and listen for once. "Free coach" means a nameless coach. Just a simple coach... but everyone gets one, at no cost, and it's up to the individual team what they do with that coach, but they don't get any rewards from it until the invest atleast a point into that coach. Everyone is just provided with a coach and it's upt to the team what they do with it. Period. |
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Post by The Sandmen on Oct 8, 2016 0:28:57 GMT -5
1 a) How so?
b) Still waiting on that list.
2) I should ask everyone else for their interpretation of league input? What?
3) a) You said coaches were the same as camp. Make up your mind.
b) I'm only a problem for you because you are talking nonsense. You get frustrated when I call you on it and you cannot defend nonsense.
4) Drop the free. It's not happening. You are deflecting.
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Oct 8, 2016 1:00:38 GMT -5
1 a) How so? b) Still waiting on that list. 2) I should ask everyone else for their interpretation of league input? What? 3) a) You said coaches were the same as camp. Make up your mind. b) I'm only a problem for you because you are talking nonsense. You get frustrated when I call you on it and you cannot defend nonsense. 4) Drop the free. It's not happening. You are deflectingi. 1) a)how quickly one (conveniently) forgets  b) No, you're not... It's all in everything I've said so far, then you piss and moan when I repeat myself. You're literate right? How is it my fault that you only read what you want to? 2) No, you should actually listen to all league input instead of just what you want listen to. 3) a) Nope... Actually you were the one that compared coaches to camp. I never did. Read back. b) No... Cuz I'm not frustrated at all really... you're just a problem in general when you get like this because you refuse to see past the end of your own nose. What's there to be frustrated about when this is just par for the course with you? It's just hard to tell if you're playing dumb or you just really are that bloody clueless. It's pretty sad honestly. So what are you calling me on exactly?  4) Read the reality... Stop focusing on the word free. Cuz the only thing I'm deflecting and defending against here is your assertions against my character here bud... That's it. |
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Post by The Sandmen on Oct 8, 2016 1:07:10 GMT -5
I ask for proof/evidence to back up your statements, you say "No" 4 times in one post. Funny how that works. Again. ...And again, and again. What was it you used to say..."The proof is in the pudding"? Yeah...that. I think we are done here. Unless, of course, you have some lists, quotes, or evidence to provide?
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Post by Lord Byron's Conquistadors on Oct 8, 2016 1:41:47 GMT -5
a) Apparently not, since Byron's come at you already with a bit of opposition too. no I didn't wtf? |
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Post by The Rocketmen on Oct 8, 2016 9:40:49 GMT -5
I'm not reading this anymore. Let me know next week if this is happening or not. Cheers.
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Ferocity
Black Belt (5th Degree)
Posts: 3,455
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Post by Ferocity on Oct 8, 2016 13:50:41 GMT -5
Thus 2nd page is exhausting to read. Can we get back to what the problem could be?
So if I understand any of the above, the basic concern was that there was too munch benefit to too few, and probably the best teams.... Is that accurate?
If it is, then I think Byron's suggestion answers it. If more is needed, then we should consider putting the coaches on contracts.
For example, you could buy the best coach for 7 points for a five year contract, or 5 points for a 3 year contract. After their contact they'd be up in the draft or an auction, giving weak teams a real opportunity to obtain them.
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Ferocity
Black Belt (5th Degree)
Posts: 3,455
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Post by Ferocity on Oct 8, 2016 13:56:21 GMT -5
So I just reread, and I have to say, we should only do the above if more than one person has a problem with Byron's suggestion.
As far as I can tell, this isn't true.
I like the original proposal with Byron edits just fine, and don't think we need to do more.
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Post by The Rocketmen on Oct 8, 2016 15:50:39 GMT -5
I'm down with the original proposal
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Post by xx - Camp Cannon on Oct 9, 2016 1:00:11 GMT -5
this only benefit the few bottom teams of one season n they get shit ton of extrra long term points 4 it either coaches contracts should expire every 2 season too give new lowered team advantage or scrap the idea
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Post by The Sandmen on Oct 9, 2016 2:13:03 GMT -5
Here's where I need clarification though.
If we accept that the top teams are perpetually at the top, and the bottom teams are perpetually at the bottom, this draft would be no different.
And if this draft is no different, the bottom teams will get the top coaches.
And if the bottom teams get the top coaches, they get the advantage (if they want it) of better coaches.
I feel like that is win-win.
In addition, I think if we go with Byron's modifier within a few seasons, if there is some sort of dramatic change where the 1-2 extra points a season the current-bottom teams are getting is game-changing, we can evaluate the coach system at that time, consider allowing level ups at that time, or something else along those lines.
I think the one thing that the fighers in ManMMA have proved time and time again is that people don't care about quality, they care about names. There have been B and C ranked fighters on the free agent list many times. I have offered A and B fighters to teams for C or unrated fighters and been rejected many, many times. People like who they like, and I don't know if a 1-2 point difference for a couple seasons will change that.
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Ferocity
Black Belt (5th Degree)
Posts: 3,455
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Post by Ferocity on Oct 9, 2016 9:00:24 GMT -5
The Sandmen , that is very true. The type of points we are talking aren't a game changer even for the lowest ranked teams. With weekly salary points they just aren't. So the point is to have fun saying "I have this coach".
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Oct 9, 2016 9:37:25 GMT -5
Here's where I need clarification though. If we accept that the top teams are perpetually at the top, and the bottom teams are perpetually at the bottom, this draft would be no different. And if this draft is no different, the bottom teams will get the top coaches. And if the bottom teams get the top coaches, they get the advantage (if they want it) of better coaches. I feel like that is win-win. In addition, I think if we go with Byron's modifier within a few seasons, if there is some sort of dramatic change where the 1-2 extra points a season the current-bottom teams are getting is game-changing, we can evaluate the coach system at that time, consider allowing level ups at that time, or something else along those lines. I think the one thing that the fighers in ManMMA have proved time and time again is that people don't care about quality, they care about names. There have been B and C ranked fighters on the free agent list many times. I have offered A and B fighters to teams for C or unrated fighters and been rejected many, many times. People like who they like, and I don't know if a 1-2 point difference for a couple seasons will change that. I dunno about a win-win exactly. There's definitely evidence supporting the top teams being perpetually on top, and bottom teams perpetually on the bottom; with minor to drastic fluxuations from time to time. But, on average, it's always been the same teams in the GP, most often. I just think if it's an extension of your team, there shouldn't be an upfront cost involved it at all. It should just be added to your team package and the GM has more control and option over how much or how little to invest in said coach. I do like the "idea" and the fun aspect of having a name coach, but I literally don't see this particular format as fair for everyone. Coaches aren't fighters and shouldn't be subject to being drafted and everyone should have an equal opportunity to obtain a top coach. That's just my opinion. |
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Funny shit. I also find it funny that you're trying to make this some sort of a personal thing by mentioning my team anf my fighters. Nothing of what I said had anything to do with that... Again, deflecting... Hilarious. And, for the record, I was upgrading both Kedzie & Zingano while I was fine tuning D'Alelio... For those actually keeping score and not trying to make a point with no base behind them.
Have 9 points in celebration of this monumental achievement!