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Post by The Sandmen on Jan 30, 2020 17:25:27 GMT -5
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Post by xx - Former Bulldozers on Jan 30, 2020 17:30:41 GMT -5
Man, you don't have to put that in the title. I don't care what side you're on, he's still somebody who's now gone. It's disrespectful.
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Post by The Sandmen on Jan 30, 2020 17:37:56 GMT -5
Man, you don't have to put that in the title. I don't care what side you're on, he's still somebody who's now gone. It's disrespectful. 1) I changed it, out of respect for your request, not out of respect for "somebody who is now gone", because 2) Being dead does not vindicate people of their sins. If so, why do we still teach people Hitler was an asshole? He's dead, so isn't that disrespectful? |
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Post by xx - Former Bulldozers on Jan 30, 2020 17:39:32 GMT -5
It hasn't been changed and comparing Kobe to Hitler are two COMPLETELY UNRELATED things.
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Post by The Sandmen on Jan 30, 2020 17:42:02 GMT -5
I do want to reiterate, since I could not emphasize this properly in the shoutbox, that my main point in all of this not to villify Kobe specifically, but that I think its incredibly important to stop seeing our real world "heroes" as pure good, or our "villians" as "pure-bad". It doesn't matter who you are (or how good at sports you are), you have had bad moments. You have been a shitty person. Being a superstar athlete, especially one who dies young, does not absolve you of your actions. Which leads me to this:  |
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Post by xx - Former Bulldozers on Jan 30, 2020 17:45:26 GMT -5
1) Nobody knows what happened in that room except for them two.
2) She could very well be telling the truth but her actions show the complete opposite of traumatized.
3) I believe everybody is innocent until proven guilty.
4) Men get raped too, don't make this whole thing about women. Yes, the majority of rape cases happen to women but men have been raped as well.
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Post by The Sandmen on Jan 30, 2020 17:50:48 GMT -5
1) Nobody knows what happened in that room except for them two. 2) She could very well be telling the truth but her actions show the complete opposite of traumatized. 3) I believe everybody is innocent until proven guilty. 4) Men get raped too, don't make this whole thing about women. Yes, the majority of rape cases happen to women but men have been raped as well. 1) She does, and she said what happened. He also knows, and he also said what happened. But his account included, "I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter."2) Sources? I have found nothing corroborating your claims. I did find a lot of defence "slut-shaming" from the trial though. Is that what you are refering to, or do you have other sources for your claims? I am interested. 3) I covered this before. When it comes to rape, our current system is inadequate. It is completely ill-equipped to handle rape, and something new needs to come about. I have no idea what that is, and know of no one who has any better ideas. Sidenote, however, civil court uses a balance of probability, and in civil court, Kobe settled, all but admitting guilt. 4) Yes, and when men are raped, they are more likely to be believed, and rarely, if ever, a) accused of just making it up, and b) slut-shamed. Further to 4, sexual violence against men is a whole different ballgame, since most of those up until recently aren't even taken that seriously in general mainstream ideology. John Bobbitt, for example, has been a punchline for almost 30 years. In some circles, that whole case is seen as some sort of strange, fucked up "victory for women and feminism", which I think is about the most absurd, fucked-up double standard on the face of the earth. |
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Post by xx - Former Bulldozers on Jan 30, 2020 17:55:43 GMT -5
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Post by The Sandmen on Jan 30, 2020 18:03:43 GMT -5
This video harmed your case way more than helped it. 1) Are we overlooking the part where she starts crying at the end...? Is that something false accusers do when recounting trauma that never happened? 2) How is this different from everything John Bobbitt has done since his incident. Made a career out of porn and really lame puns for decades. And literally no one is questioning whether he was the victim of sexual violence. #DoubleStandard? People deal with trauma in different ways. This looks very much like someone dealing with trauma, dude. Very, very much. |
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Post by The Rocketmen on Jan 30, 2020 18:49:56 GMT -5
I listened to a good podcast interview with someone who will be testifying against Harvey Weinstein at his trial, but was actually a great friend, and still believes himself to be a friend, of Harvey.
He said there's so many people out accusing him that you have to start to believe it's something that happened, but that for him, personally, Harvey was nothing but a generous person that assisted in his career. And that he was present for a lot of meetings where he singled out women to lift them up and praise them for performances, or proclaim that an upcoming release would put them on the map where they deserved.
He said that sometimes in the middle of the line is where the real person is, but that it's very common for everyone to have equal and opposite moments at the end of the spectrum that can ultimately label them as a specific type of human being.
Kobe Bryant was a basketball star and a rapist. He probably did some incredible humanitarian work as well. Bill Cosby was a figurehead for the black community for like 40 years, and is also a rapist.
I'm not saying they should or should not be defined as rapists or for terrible things they've done, I'm saying it's part of the profile, the resume.
Basketball star
Presumably good dad (who made a shitty decision that got his daughter killed)
Rapist
Maybe good cook, who knows
But spending time to defend someone's legacy because they are dead is ridiculous.
Trying to pretend he wasn't a rapist is ridiculous.
Using the fact that he's dead to deflect is also ridiculous.
History is important.
Things that happen are important to understand that history.
Revisionist history is fucking stupid.
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Post by xx - Hidden Dragons on Jan 31, 2020 18:46:15 GMT -5
This post is sickening.
Neither of you were there & the man is dead.
End of discussion.
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Post by The Sandmen on Jan 31, 2020 18:58:40 GMT -5
This post is sickening. Neither of you were there & the man is dead. End of discussion. So when someone dies, their victims are insta-healed? The crime insta-never-happened? And most importantly, as soon as someone is dead, we should never talk about the bad things they may have done? We can only talk about dead people as saints, instead of people? That's some strange fairy tale world shit we're talking about here... Again, he (and everyone else) can be several things at once, both in life and in death. He can be a great sports star, great charity worker, great make-a-wish visit, and a one-time rapist. I do not understand this whole, "It's not okay that we give our heroes space to be humans" mentality. And especially the need to hold them up on a pedestal just because they died. Nobody is perfect, nor has ever led a perfect life. To think otherwise is naive. |
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Post by xx - Hidden Dragons on Jan 31, 2020 19:20:19 GMT -5
This post is sickening. Neither of you were there & the man is dead. End of discussion. So when someone dies, their victims are insta-healed? The crime insta-never-happened? And most importantly, as soon as someone is dead, we should never talk about the bad things they may have done? We can only talk about dead people as saints, instead of people? That's some strange fairy tale world shit we're talking about here... Again, he (and everyone else) can be several things at once, both in life and in death. He can be a great sports star, great charity worker, great make-a-wish visit, and a one-time rapist. I do not understand this whole, "It's not okay that we give our heroes space to be humans" mentality. And especially the need to hold them up on a pedestal just because they died. Nobody is perfect, nor has ever led a perfect life. To think otherwise is naive. Nah, naive is talking about peoples lives like they are your own. You were not there, neither was I, so theres not point in wasting energy on things that have no direct effect on your life. Put that energy into yourself or your loved ones, not slander that is rooted in contemplated hypocrisy. |
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Post by The Rocketmen on Jan 31, 2020 19:43:36 GMT -5
lol k maybe you're not ready for this conversation?
Your life is a legacy with its own story, and some chapters are not great, and some chapters are great.
But it doesn't change the fact that it is part of your story, whether you're alive or dead.
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Post by xx - Former Bulldozers on Jan 31, 2020 20:03:59 GMT -5
I think the most frustrating part of all of this is that nobody even talked about this case for around a decade but now because he’s dead so many people feel the need to talk about it. If it wasn’t important enough for you to talk about in the last 10 years then why is it important now?
Just let the man Rest In Peace.
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Have 9 points in celebration of this monumental achievement!