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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Mar 5, 2015 12:23:25 GMT -5
More words, I see. I'll opt not to read those as well. Why bother commenting if you're not going to contribute anything intelligent to the conversation man?!  This whole "we should punish Sandmen" attitude you seem to have is silly. I in no way have the most to gain from this suggestion. And you, in no way, are suggesting alternatives or improvements to this suggestion. If we can drop the pettiness and discuss what is in the greater interest of the league as a whole, I am still completely unconvinced that this suggestion is anything but bad. We established that HOW you upgrade matters most. We established that STYLE matters a great deal as well. We established 85s are not unbeatable We established that no one is 100% happy with the list (and no one has a better one) We established that pretty much everyone is unhappy with Lauren Murphy and Douglas Lima (and Hansen and Aoki and Askren), and that that should change. We established that The Sandmen is not content going through another season of half the league whining about "___ should be better than ___ this is bullshit". We established (many real-time years ago) that a cap of 100 is league-breaking (all fights end in boring decisions) So...again, I am not hearing any better suggestions and every time I ask, I get "You have Anderson Silva, you upgraded Hansen, you you you you you you". This is not about just me, it's about fixing a major problem with ManMMA. I would be open to more input, but we REALLY need to get a move on this before the draft starts. Get the proposed changes or modifications to this suggestion coming and NOW. Before we are left with no choice but to just power through with it. I do wanna make it 100% clear that I am NOT on the "we should punish Sandmen" vibe in being opposed to this change. I'm opposed to this change because I'm the one most affected by this change, both by the fighter lists you provided and my upgrade choices seeming to be adverse to what the simulator seems to like. Though I do think you gain quite a bit by this change as it is that you are one of the "upgrade right" crew. It's also extremely difficult to sway your judgement on anything when you have your guard up already and you believe you're "right" about everything, when that's not always the case either. Just pointing it out; it's not meant to be a point of contention. As for your points: We established that HOW you upgrade matters most. - Yes... while this is true, as someone that seems to "upgrade wrong", whether it has something to do with me or the simulator, we both agree that there is something wrong there. It's just really odd how it seems that my choices for upgrades differ some much from others choices when we have the same attributes to choose from. We established that STYLE matters a great deal as well. -Yes, that was never a point of contention with me. We established 85s are not unbeatable - I never once said they were unbeatable, so yes I agree. We established that no one is 100% happy with the list (and no one has a better one) - Well, as I outlined in one of my posts above, the problem that I have with the list is that I think that former real life champions, that aren't on that list, should be considered an "A fighter" as well. If we're able to make an addendum or two to add and subtract fighters from that list, I don't think it'd be so bad. We established that pretty much everyone is unhappy with Lauren Murphy and Douglas Lima (and Hansen and Aoki and Askren), and that that should change. - I'm unhappy with Murphy because I don't like her at all... not in ManMMA and certainly not in real life. The fact that they're capped here or that they're good here isn't what I'm unhappy about and I'd be a total hypocrite if that were the case being that I have D'Alelio capped and I still do want to make Jason MacD into a championship fighter as well. My unhappiness stems from my real life dislike for those folks and not because of anything to do with ManMMA. We established that The Sandmen is not content going through another season of half the league whining about "___ should be better than ___ this is bullshit". - You're going to get that anyways regardless of this change or not, bro... that's not going to change anytime soon for you, unfortunately. We've a great many fighters in this league that are either underachieving or overachieving... and much as I like to complain that it's your fault and like to think it is, it's not. It's the simulator's fault, not yours. We established (many real-time years ago) that a cap of 100 is league-breaking (all fights end in boring decisions) - To a point, yes... but in light of the fact that we've now established that overall means very little in terms how good or bad a fighter is or isn't, that maybe we were also wrong in thinking that having a cap of 100 was as league-breaking as we thought when we figured overall had something to do with how good a fighter actually is. Just something to think about there. Now that I've addressed those points, I'm still opposed to the new system because I really do feel that we should be able to upgrade any fighter we want to without restriction of the bias of saying "well, you sucked in real life, so you can only be an 81". I'm just not fond of this A, B and C system and would much prefer it stay the way it is and, as I suggested before, just raise the current caps that we have now that we are finally seeing more parity coming to fruition in the divisions. I'm also not pleased, and opposed to the new changes, because the women are being left off of this due to "not having a list" as a guide when the list we currently have for the men is just as shoddy as any list we'd come up with on our own as both are baseed on opinion and conjectuure. The women are a part of this league too and I'm still of the mind that the women's cap should be around 80-82 being that we don't have separate weight classes in that division and it's rare that we ever see a woman vs. a man fight unless it's a bet or a challenge of some sort... but I've always felt that the women's cap has been too low right from the beginning. |
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Post by The Rocketmen on Mar 5, 2015 12:39:01 GMT -5
I would have assumed you would have already replied to everything that has been said to this point, but it appears you have further time to rehash the same points.
TL;DR - see page 7
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Mar 5, 2015 14:47:45 GMT -5
I would have assumed you would have already replied to everything that has been said to this point, but it appears you have further time to rehash the same points. TL;DR - see page 7 No actually... quite the opposite. I haven't been name calling or anything to that affect. Plus, I hadn't really addressed any of the points he mentioned there clearly, but I was also getting lumped in with Cannon's "punish the Sandmen" side of this and that's not where I'm at with it at all. I have offered why I'm opposed to it and given an alternate suggestion that seemed to have gotten buried. That's the only reason why I broke down his points in that manner; for clarity... that's it. |
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Post by The Rocketmen on Mar 5, 2015 15:20:11 GMT -5
Fair Enough.
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Post by The Sandmen on Mar 5, 2015 17:27:58 GMT -5
xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club, I'm not going to quote your post or pieces of it because it will be messy, but I am addressing the points you brought up that you did contend. 1) How you upgrade matters and you "upgrade wrong". Regardless of cap, there is nothing anyone can do to change this. You have capped fighters, some are winning, some are losing. We all have the same thing going on. It can't be helped, and it is not changed by this cap. 2) "Shoulds" and Lauren Murphy - ...okay. So we will still have more of the "should and should not"s But now, I no longer have to be like, "that's right, GSP should not be losing to Matt Weiman" and I have the extra cap space to do something about it. The REAL "should" becomes determined by the objective list. 3) The Objective List Part 1: "Champions = A's" - Not all champions are equal. Not all organizations are equal. What equals an auto-A-champion league, and what makes it not? I have no interest in setting arbitrary cut-offs (Pride counts, OneFC doesn't, Bellator counts, but WEC doesn't, etc). Fedor was never a UFC champion, and I don't think any real MMA fan will dispute he is one of, if not THE GoaT. The Objective List Part 2: "The bottom batch". I am cool taking out those 5 or 6 fighters I mentioned before and bringing in the next 5 or 6 on the list. From the ranks of the C-level fighters, we would be dropping: Yasuhiro Urushitani Mamoru Yamaguchi Alexandre Franca Nogueira Pat Curran Patricio Freire Rambaa Somdet Shinya Murofushi And adding: Matt Lindland Phil Davis Jeremy Horn Chris Lytle Jussier da Silva Ian McCall Guy Mezger I am okay with that change. 4) Women - fact is, we don't have a list. If you want me to make one so we have an A-C scale for them too, I will, but it will not be as objective as the epic tapology list. However, women are on THAT tapology list, so if you want to volunteer to collect and PM me the top 100 women on THAT list, I could take a look at it and see if we could make some use of it. I would be happy with that, actually.
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Post by xx - Camp Cannon on Mar 5, 2015 18:46:01 GMT -5
if sandmen and rocketmen are the best upgraders like phx says and let say wanderlei maxed at 84% 85% and i'm just gunna guess that anderson is probably a 79-82%, anderson always loses to wanderlei thus sandmen whole theory is false..
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Post by xx - Camp Cannon on Mar 5, 2015 20:00:15 GMT -5
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Post by xx - The Broad Street Bullies on Mar 5, 2015 20:02:38 GMT -5
I wouldn't say A. Silva can't beat W. Silva. 2 times isn't the be all end all.
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Post by xx - Camp Cannon on Mar 6, 2015 0:06:43 GMT -5
I wouldn't say A. Silva can't beat W. Silva. 2 times isn't the be all end all. tho he hasnt beat him yet prolly wont until a silva is upgraded |
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Post by xx - The Broad Street Bullies on Mar 6, 2015 0:38:29 GMT -5
We'll see about that.
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Mar 6, 2015 8:37:07 GMT -5
xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club, I'm not going to quote your post or pieces of it because it will be messy, but I am addressing the points you brought up that you did contend. 1) How you upgrade matters and you "upgrade wrong". Regardless of cap, there is nothing anyone can do to change this. You have capped fighters, some are winning, some are losing. We all have the same thing going on. It can't be helped, and it is not changed by this cap. 2) "Shoulds" and Lauren Murphy - ...okay. So we will still have more of the "should and should not"s But now, I no longer have to be like, "that's right, GSP should not be losing to Matt Weiman" and I have the extra cap space to do something about it. The REAL "should" becomes determined by the objective list. 3) The Objective List Part 1: "Champions = A's" - Not all champions are equal. Not all organizations are equal. What equals an auto-A-champion league, and what makes it not? I have no interest in setting arbitrary cut-offs (Pride counts, OneFC doesn't, Bellator counts, but WEC doesn't, etc). Fedor was never a UFC champion, and I don't think any real MMA fan will dispute he is one of, if not THE GoaT. The Objective List Part 2: "The bottom batch". I am cool taking out those 5 or 6 fighters I mentioned before and bringing in the next 5 or 6 on the list. From the ranks of the C-level fighters, we would be dropping: Yasuhiro Urushitani Mamoru Yamaguchi Alexandre Franca Nogueira Pat Curran Patricio Freire Rambaa Somdet Shinya Murofushi And adding: Matt Lindland Phil Davis Jeremy Horn Chris Lytle Jussier da Silva Ian McCall Guy Mezger I am okay with that change. 4) Women - fact is, we don't have a list. If you want me to make one so we have an A-C scale for them too, I will, but it will not be as objective as the epic tapology list. However, women are on THAT tapology list, so if you want to volunteer to collect and PM me the top 100 women on THAT list, I could take a look at it and see if we could make some use of it. I would be happy with that, actually. 1) Yes, it is in fact changed by this cap because only a "select few" get to be tweaked up to 84, not all, which was part of what made this league fun for me in that I could make a guy like Jason MacD as good as I wanted him to be. 2) I disagree with that entire point. 3) I agree somewhat with part 1 but part 2 wouldn't be required, not only because I don't think Pat Curran should be removed from the list, but also that most of the guys you mentioned adding are already on the list. If you compacted the list, separating the women out and removing the Shooto guys and what not, that might create a counter balance and also move guys up the list that should be higher. 4) If you separate the women off the all-time list there, as I have already, there are 32 women on that list... If we use that then compile the rest from the P4P list and then, if there are any missing, from the other women's list, we'd have a women's list fairly easily. The only real issue there would be Kedzie since she's now retired and doesn't appear on the current lists anymore. |
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Post by xx - The Broad Street Bullies on Mar 6, 2015 10:38:12 GMT -5
We don't need as long a list for women, considering we have 40 on teams and 27 as swapable. That's twice as few on teams and over 4 times less in swapable.
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Mar 6, 2015 13:21:09 GMT -5
We don't need as long a list for women, considering we have 40 on teams and 27 as swapable. That's twice as few on teams and over 4 times less in swapable. Yah, a top 50-60 would suffice, but this is all ridiculous anyways... the truth is that he's actually creating more work for himself, not less... not everyone's going to drop their 81 cap fighters and we're going end up with all capped fighters in the league and no real point in drafting anyone new to the league ever again... it's just going to be the same old shit. Might as well not even have a draft after this year and just give every team 2 points... |
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Post by The Sandmen on Mar 6, 2015 14:15:26 GMT -5
1) Yes, it is in fact changed by this cap because only a "select few" get to be tweaked up to 84, not all, which was part of what made this league fun for me in that I could make a guy like Jason MacD as good as I wanted him to be. You have not even made any of your 81-capped fighters an 80 yet, let alone an 81, so this is beyond moot. Have this argument in 2 seasons when your fighters reach the cap and cannot beat anyone. IF that comes about, we can review this suggestion then. Right now, since we established as ABSOLUTE FACT that 85s do not necessarily always beat 81s (and you have not even cracked 80 yet with any of those fighters) this is entirely irrelevant. 2) I disagree with that entire point. ...okay...? 3) I agree somewhat with part 1 but part 2 wouldn't be required, not only because I don't think Pat Curran should be removed from the list, but also that most of the guys you mentioned adding are already on the list. If you compacted the list, separating the women out and removing the Shooto guys and what not, that might create a counter balance and also move guys up the list that should be higher. I did that already. Those would be the guys coming in to round the list out to top 100 after the women have been removed, etc. 4) If you separate the women off the all-time list there, as I have already, there are 32 women on that list... If we use that then compile the rest from the P4P list and then, if there are any missing, from the other women's list, we'd have a women's list fairly easily. The only real issue there would be Kedzie since she's now retired and doesn't appear on the current lists anymore. PM me the list, as I have asked you to do, and we'll see what we can make of it. |
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Post by xx - Camp Cannon on Mar 6, 2015 15:30:28 GMT -5
phx u make no sense u want a list 4 women and u dont want a list ur confizzled, 2 my list is ignored 3 my list was better 4 a silva cant beat w silva making the whole suggestion moot
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Have 9 points in celebration of this monumental achievement!