What's The Draft Pick Problem?

[The Sandmen]

At 10 pages, the Draft Pick Value suggestion has got way off track, over and over again. This one will stay on track.


Part 1: Let's define the problem together!
Answer these questions in your reply!

~ Preface ~
Currently, to help weaker teams we have the following systems in place:
- 2 points, or a free new fighter, are awarded for the last-place teams draft pick (1st overall pick).
- In "Game changer" auctions, last-place teams are given a greater chance of winning said fighter.
- In "Game changer" auctions, teams with weaker fighters in general, and in the fighter's weight-class, are given a slightly greater chance of winning said fighter.
- Established teams very routinely help out new or struggling teams through charity trades, gifts, discounts, etc.



1) What EXACTLY do you think the problem is that is not being addressed with the above system?

2) What exactly is a good team vs. a bad team here? Champions? Team standings? Where is the line? We have last-place teams (in standings) with titles. We have 1st place teams with 0 titles. We have had Grand Prix winners with neither.

3) How are ways teams can get better? And, importantly,where does the line between "Team's Responsibility" and "League Fairness" lie in that spectrum? (i,e, there are teams that choose not to upgrade the majority of their fighters, and there are teams that choose to carry large or small teams, with direct consequences RE: standings.)

[Ferocity]

I don't think there is a problem, I've been at the top, middle, and bottom based on choices I've made. If someone in particular needs some help sometime, they should ask and I'm sure the league will figure a way to help.

[Lord Byron's Conquistadors]

preface) we might do too much but if it keeps new guys havin fun i got no problem with it. i like that it seems noobs can come on and have a competitive team it keeps it fun for me so i aint just washin their team every time i fight their noob guys.

1) i don i think ferocity said it best there. i mean i made a champ when i tried hard to do that i never cared much for gp and rarely bout champ but bas had a chance and i went for it and it worked out. i offer charity and other help when i can cuz i don mind and i donno if i ever said no to someone askin bout a fighter

2) good team is whatever makes the owner happy. im happy jus having guys to work on and chippin away at them. one day ill win a gp but it aint no concern of mine. i like seeing my team get better tho and i think i do that when i try to do that and aint tradin away my bj pens and rich franklins and jon fitches LOL

3) post be active and upgrade. i don think the league is respoinsible for my team since winning the belt with bas i think if you work at a belt you can win one if you work at gp win its probably harder cuz you got more guys to upgrade but you probly can.

[The Rocketmen]

make it so that all the bad teams now for the next ten seasons win fights automatically. cheat for them and they will be satisfied with the ratio of "who has been in the grand prix vs. not". forever and ever amen.

[xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club]

1) As I've outlined SEVERAL times now, the defined problem is that we have the same teams at the top, middle and bottom, virtually every season. We do see little spikes of the bottom teams once in a while popping up to the middle or to the top then they drop right back down to the doldrums where they were before then they have to claw and scrape their way back to be even close to being there again then we see a top team drop out one season then pop right back up the following season, without hardly doing a damn thing. So I have to disagree with Ferocity that there isn't a problem.

2) I partly agree with Conquistadors on this one; beauty is always in the eye of the beholder, as it were. For me, it comes down to the frustration of seeing other folks put just as much work, or less into fighters as I do, but I generally don't see the results that everyone else seems to. I just have no luck with the fighters I've selected for some reason. I mean you can point out that I do have 3 capped fighters, but when they're not getting the results they should be, despite the ability to beat 90-98% of the rest of the division they're in, it's extremely daunting. Having a good GP team was one of my goals that I've now ticked off my list. The problem is that I don't make the GP enough to showcase that, which is another goal: to make the GP more consistently; you can point to my roster size if you like, but I've made the GP with this number of fighters, so that really shouldn't be as much of an issue. I get with that comes more losses, etc. and I don't expect to win every fight nor do I expect the GP every season, I'd just rather it be a closer race than it generally tends to be.

3) Conquistadors is right again... posting and being active is a way to make your team better, but with many of the things such as the new cap system, the ever changing PPP, the "gamble" you take with the TC, the paltry point values of the 1st & 2nd overall picks, etc., it really does lend itself more to making it more difficult for bottom teams to get ahead and be competitive, despite the concessions Sandman listed above.

So, "Where does the line between Team's Responsibility and League Fairness lie in that spectrum?": ...I have to ask, what line? Do you mean chalk line that the league erases and moves every off season or every time a "bad team" shows signs of improvement? The one that moves to make it even harder on the "bad" teams and easier for the "good" teams again. As far as I'm concerned, there isn't one. Cuz any time a "bad" team does take responsibility and improves their team, the next thing you know, there's some sort of rule change or the fighter cap change or something to make it so they're not back even close to where they were. I'm sure that's not the intent, but that has been what's happened more often than not with any of the rule changes. There is a certain amount of team responsibility, but it's extremely hard to gauge where that line is because teams have control over certain things, but the league has control over everything, and when that's constantly changing, usually for no reason at all, that is the league's responsibility.

As for "League Fairness", if you're meaning day-to-day and overall, the league has made a few concessions by giving auction preference to lower teams (the odd time that we have them), the lower PPP for lower volume posters, and sometimes the "charity" deals are all good things, but that's only a small part and doesn't translate to these "bad" teams improving much, if at all, allot of the time. We're already seeing GAP starting to decline a bit again already when he was the top team all last season til the end and I'd be surprised if the Conquistadors even came close to his 2nd place finish last season, even though I'd be happy if he did make it back to atleast top 5 or something. It's just like how I made the GP for a third time on my own, finally, and both Cannon and I made the GP finals, only to drop to the bottom of the league the following season. There's something wrong there, and it's not only the team's responsibility when the league keeps changing the rules every season.

Call this complaining all you want, cuz it is... I myself have been here for nearly 11 season now, and I've seen this exact same pattern play out over and over, from season to season, all too often and nothing ever actually changes much. And any time any tangible change is suggested to make it better for any of the bottom teams, it's met with either "revisions" or nothing but scrutiny, malice, the thought that it's solely being suggested for selfish reasons or defamatory comments intent to deflect away from any actual discussion of any suggestion of any kind. (See Rocketman's snide comment above for an example) We all want to have fun here, and there are those of us, like myself, that think making the GP is a big deal or winning atleast a title once in a while, and, as I said, when you see the others around you doing the same work or even less, but still getting those results you're after, it gets extremely frustrating.

[Ferocity]

Apr 14, 2015 12:07:18 GMT -5 xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club said:

1) As I've outlined SEVERAL times now, the defined problem is that we have the same teams at the top, middle and bottom, virtually every season. We do see little spikes of the bottom teams once in a while popping up to the middle or to the top then they drop right back down to the doldrums where they were before then they have to claw and scrape their way back to be even close to being there again then we see a top team drop out one season then pop right back up the following season, without hardly doing a damn thing. So I have to disagree with Ferocity that there isn't a problem.

Can you name these top, bottom, and middle teams for me? I don't mean this snidely, I just haven't seen the pattern and so I want to understand it.

[xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club]

Apr 14, 2015 20:26:41 GMT -5 Ferocity said:

Apr 14, 2015 12:07:18 GMT -5 xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club said:

1) As I've outlined SEVERAL times now, the defined problem is that we have the same teams at the top, middle and bottom, virtually every season. We do see little spikes of the bottom teams once in a while popping up to the middle or to the top then they drop right back down to the doldrums where they were before then they have to claw and scrape their way back to be even close to being there again then we see a top team drop out one season then pop right back up the following season, without hardly doing a damn thing. So I have to disagree with Ferocity that there isn't a problem.

Can you name these top, bottom, and middle teams for me? I don't mean this snidely, I just haven't seen the pattern and so I want to understand it.

I had posted them in the other thread... if The Sandmen will unlock the other thread I can pull it again for you.

[The Sandmen]

Current Standings

1. The RocketMen 0.73
2. Ferocity 0.70
3. Broad Street Bullies 0.69
4. The Sandmen 0.64
5. Camp Cannon 0.61
6. Phoenix Fight Club 0.54
7. The Underdog Regime 0.5
7. West Coast Knockouts 0.5
9. Team GAP 0.43
10. Lord Byron's Conquistadors 0.36
11. The Mighty Ducks 0.25

---

Season 13
1 The Sandmen
2 Lord Byron's Conquistadors
3 The Rocketmen (GP Finalist)
4 The West Coast Knockouts
5 Team GAP
6 The Mighty Ducks
7 The Broad Street Bullies (GP winner)
8 Ferocity
9 Camp Cannon
10 Phoenix Fight Club


Season 12
1 The Sandmen
2 The Broad Street Bullies
3 The Underdog Regime
4 The Rocketmen
5 Camp Cannon (GP winner)
6 The Mighty Ducks
7 The West Coast Knockouts
8 Phoenix Fight Club (GP finalist)
9 The Soviet Union
10 Canadian Bulldozers
11 Ferocity
12 Team GrappleMuch?
13 Team GAP
14 Lord Byron's Conquistadors


Season 11
1 The Sandmen
2 The Underdog Regime
2 The West Coast Knockouts
4 The Rocketmen
5 Camp Cannon (GP finalist)
6 Team GAP
7 The Broad Street Bullies
8 Canadian Bulldozers (GP winner)
9 Ferocity
10 Lord Byron's Conquistadors
11 Rebel Storm
12 Phoenix Fight Club
13 The Soviet Union
N/A Team GrappleMuch?

Season 10
1 Camp Cannon (GP finalist)
2 The Sandmen (GP winner)
3 Team GAP
4 Ferocity
5 Lord Byron's Conquistadors
6 Rebel Storm
7 Canadian Bulldozers
8 The Rocketmen
9 The West Coast Knockouts
10 Phoenix Fight Club
11 The Underdog Regime

Season 9
1 Ferocity
2 The Sandmen
3 Team 3lite (GP winner)
4 The Rocketmen
5 Rebel Storm
6 The Underdog Regime
7 Camp Cannon (GP finalist)
8 Lord Byron's Conquistadors
8 The West Coast Knockouts
10 Phoenix Fight Club
11 Team GAP

Season 8
1 Camp Cannon
2 The Sandmen (GP finalist)
3 Rebel Storm
4 The West Coast Knockouts
5 The Ultimate Underdogs
6 Ferocity (GP winner)
7 Team Ramrod
8 Phoenix Fight Club
9 The HammerFists
10 Lord Byron's Conquistadors
11 The Old Crows
12 Team GAP

Season 7
1 Team Ramrod
2 The Sandmen (GP winner)
3 Team GrappleMuch
4 The HammerFists
5 Ferocity
6 Lord Byron's Conquistadors
7 Camp Cannon (GP finalist)
8 The West Coast Knockouts
9 The Ultimate Underdogs
10 Phoenix Fight Club
11 Rebel Storm

Season 6
1 Rebel Storm
2 Team Ramrod
3 West Coast Knockouts
4 Team Grapplemuch (GP winner)
5 The HammerFists
6 The Sandmen (GP finalist)
7 Camp Cannon
8 Phoenix Fight Club
9. Ferocity
10. The Ultimate Underdogs
11. Lord Byron's Conquistadors
12. Team GAP


Season 5
1 The Sandmen (GP finalist)
2 Team Grapplemuch (GP winner)
3 Ferocity
4 Team Ramrod
5 Lord Byron's Conquistadors
6 Camp Cannon
7 The HammerFists
8 Team GAP
9. West Coast Knockouts
10. The Ultimate Underdogs
11. Phoenix Fight Club
12. The Mighty Ducks

Season 4
1 Team Ramrod
2 Team GAP
3 The Sandmen (GP finalist)
4 The HammerFists
5 West Coast Knockouts (GP winner)
6 Ferocity
7 The Mighty Ducks
8 Lord Byron's Conquistadors
9 Team Grapplemuch
10 Phoenix Fight Club
11 Camp Cannon

Season 3
1 Team GrappleMuch (GP winner)
2 Ferocity (GP finalist)
3 Team Ramrod
4 The Minute Men
5 The West Coast Knockouts
6 Team Nightmare
7 The Broad Street Bullies
8 The Sandmen
9 Phoenix Fight Club
10 The Newfoundland Rock
11 The Mighty Ducks
12 The HammerFists
13 Lord Byron's Conquistadors

Season 2 (unknown - more research than I planned on doing required)

The Hammerfists - GP winner
The West Coast Knockouts - GP finalist

Season 1 (Unknown - no GP)

[The Mighty Ducks]

Seems to me that the real problem to all of this is that i don't have enough money.

[Ferocity]

there are 10 teams-

there have been 8 different teams in the top 3 slots between season 13-9
and in a weird co-incidence 8 different teams in the bottom between those same seasons.

[xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club]

Apr 15, 2015 6:55:01 GMT -5 Ferocity said:

there are 10 teams-

there have been 8 different teams in the top 3 slots between season 13-9
and in a weird co-incidence 8 different teams in the bottom between those same seasons.

It's true, we do have 10 teams now, but we've usually had more in previous seasons. I'm also not certain as to why Sandman keeps trying to focus on the GP winners & finalists when the discussion is solely about the regular season and not the GP at all, but here's what I'd posted in the other thread that more accurately represents what I'm talking about, and looking at it team by team with these percentages as oppose to just the straight standings.

Sandmen: Top 5 Finishes = 9/11 (81%) | Bottom 2 Finishes = 0/11 (0%)
S13: 1st
S12: 1st
S11: 1st
S10: 2nd
S9: 2nd
S8: 2nd
S7: 2nd
S6: 6th
S5: 1st
S4: 3rd
S3: 8th**

**Has never finished out of the GP, but gave PHX his spot in S3; PHX's 1st season

Rocketmen/Hammerfists: Top 5 Finishes = 7/11 (63%) | Bottom 2 Finishes = 1/11 (0.09%)
S13: 3rd
S12: 4th
S11: 4th
S10: 8th
S9: 4th
S8: 9th
S7: 4th
S6: 5th
S5: 7th
S4: 4th
S3: 12th

KO's: Top 5 Finishes = 6/11 (55%) | Bottom 2 Finishes = 0/11 (0%)
S13: 4th
S12: 7th
S11: 2nd (Tie)
S10: 9th
S9: 8th (Tie)
S8: 4th
S7: 8th
S6: 3rd
S5: 9th
S4: 5th
S3: 5th

UnderDogs: Top 5 Finishes = 3/7 (42%) | Bottom 2 Finishes = 2/7 (29%)
S12: 3rd
S11: 2nd (Tie)
S10: 11th
S9: 6th
S8: 5th
S7: 9th
S6: 10th

Cannon: Top 5 Finishes = 4/10 (40%) | Bottom 2 Finishes = 2/10 (20%)
S13: 9th
S12: 5th
S11: 5th
S10: 1st
S9: 7th
S8: 1st
S7: 7th
S6: 7th
S5: 6th
S4: 11th

Ferocity: Top 5 Finishes = 4/11 (36%) | Bottom 2 Finishes = 0/11 (0%)
S13: 8th
S12: 11th
S11: 9th
S10: 4th
S9: 1st
S8: 6th
S7: 5th
S6: 9th
S5: 3rd
S4: 6th
S3: 2nd

GAP: Top 5 Finishes = 3/9 (33%) | Bottom 2 Finishes = 4/9 (44%)
S13: 5th
S12: 13th
S11: 6th
S10: 3rd
S9: 11th
S8: 12th (Return season)
S6: 12th (Season quit)**
S5: 8th
S4: 2nd

Bullies: Top 5 Finishes = 1/4 (25%) | Bottom 2 Finishes = 0/4 (0%)
S13: 7th
S12: 2nd
S11: 7th
S3: 7th

Ducks: Top 5 Finishes = 0/5 (0%) | Bottom 2 Finishes = 1/5 (2%)
S13: 6th
S12: 6th
S5: 11th
S4: 7th
S3: 11th

LBC: Top 5 Finishes = 1/11 (0.09%) | Bottom 2 Finishes = 3/11 (27%)
S13: 2nd
S12: 14th
S11: 10th
S10: 5th
S9: 8th (Tie)
S8: 10th
S7: 6th
S6: 11th
S5: 5th
S4: 8th
S3: 13th

Phoenix: Top 5 Finishes = 0/11 (0%) | Bottom 2 Finishes = 7/11 (64%)
S13: 10th
S12: 8th
S11: 12th
S10: 10th
S9: 11th
S8: 8th
S7: 10th
S6: 8th
S5: 10th
S4: 10th
S3: 9th


Significant Teams No Longer With ManMMA

Ramrod: Top 5 Finishes = 5/6 (83%) | Bottom 2 Finishes = 0/6 (0%)
S8: 7th
S7: 1st
S6: 2nd
S5: 4th
S4: 1st
S3: 3rd

Grapplemuch: Top 5 Finishes = 4/6 (67%) | Bottom 2 Finishes = 0/6 (0%)
S12: 12th
S7: 3rd
S6: 4th
S5: 2nd
S4: 9th
S3: 1st

Rebel Storm: Top 5 Finishes = 3/6 (50%) | Bottom 2 Finishes = 1/6 (17%)
S11: 11th
S10: 6th
S9: 5th
S8: 3rd
S7: 11th
S6: 1st

Bulldozers: Top 5 Finishes = 0/3 | Bottom 2 Finishes = 0/3
S12: 10th
S11: 8th
S10: 7th

[The Mighty Ducks]

I see a trend with the previously lower ranked teams like GAP suddenly putting it together, improving their fighters and finishing much higher than they initially had. I'd consider that to be starting off with a weak roster and slowly improving it either with development or trades or swaps.

I've also never been better than 6th, but I still feel like I've improved tremendously.

What you didn't account for is how many fighters did all of those teams have in those seasons? I think it can be easily stated that solid, if somewhat fluky, development and a lowest roster total helped teams perform better than the 1 person that continues to be weak.

But we'll never use that as fact, because that would ruin an argument, and that's what you're here for isn't it? To argue? To fix something that isn't broken?

Sell off 10 fighters, put 10 points into your existing (BEST remaining) fighters, and you'll improve your wins-loss ratio. That simple.

[xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club]

Apr 15, 2015 11:24:48 GMT -5 The Mighty Ducks said:

I see a trend with the previously lower ranked teams like GAP suddenly putting it together, improving their fighters and finishing much higher than they initially had. I'd consider that to be starting off with a weak roster and slowly improving it either with development or trades or swaps.

I've also never been better than 6th, but I still feel like I've improved tremendously.

What you didn't account for is how many fighters did all of those teams have in those seasons? I think it can be easily stated that solid, if somewhat fluky, development and a lowest roster total helped teams perform better than the 1 person that continues to be weak.

But we'll never use that as fact, because that would ruin an argument, and that's what you're here for isn't it? To argue? To fix something that isn't broken?

Sell off 10 fighters, put 10 points into your existing (BEST remaining) fighters, and you'll improve your wins-loss ratio. That simple.

First of all, no one's here to argue bro... this is a discussion; nothing else.

Second, I'm not quite sure how you're seeing teams like GAP "suddenly putting it together" when a majority of his season's he's finished in the bottom 2, not unlike just two seasons ago. Have we all had some improvement to our teams in some ways? Absolutely... I have as well, but as you can see by this season's standings already, granted we're only 5 events in, that we're already seeing a decline of GAP, who lead the league most of last season before his drop to 5th, and the Conquistadors who finished 2nd that are currently sitting 9th, and as you eluded to, we can't really expect that my current position in 6th will last, just due to the law of averages.

That being said though, as it pertains to my roster size, I've never once said that carrying a larger roster wasn't a factor in this, and I mentioned as such in my first post of this thread. I'm fully aware that it has been a factor in the number of times I have finished in the bottom two. However, as you also weren't around from Seasons 6-11, you're not completely privy to all the goings on during that period of time and the reasons why I do happen to carry a larger roster than most folks now, which basically comes down to my post volume and my PPP that, for most of that time period you were away, I'd had my PPP range from 50-100 because a number of folks complained about my activity and post volume. So I started adding to my roster to counteract that and spread out the points to try and keep my PPP on par with everyone else around the league; that's the short version. So, saying to sell off 10 fighters is all well and good, but is a little easier said than done, just for the simple reason that I fear that as soon as I reduce my roster to "average" league size, that the complaints about my post volume will pop up again and thusly my PPP would end up going up again and counteract the roster downsize. I honestly feel like I'm in a "damned if I do; damned if I don't" situation when it comes to my roster size and at this point, I'd rather have the lower PPP, and that part of it is on me cuz it is my choice.

Now that you have a bit of a background on that, back to your point about the roster size... The 3 times that I have made the GP on my own in 8th place has been with over-sized rosters; S12: 23 fighters - S8: 19 fighters - S6: 17 fighters. So, while I do agree that roster size is a contributing factor, it is most certainly not the only factor to consider based on the ability to make the GP with an over-sized roster.

[Lord Byron's Conquistadors]

didn read phx saga of greek tragedy proportions but i look at the facts and the rankings look reasonble to me. i mean hard to argue theres no diversity when your in the gp finals or win one year and you are last the next. also i noticed phx you counted yourself as a bottom 2 in season 11 when grapplemuch and soviet union were both below you. guess we know your stats aint reliable lmao wtf???

[Lord Byron's Conquistadors]

byron summary; if only 2 of the 12 teams here don move much and the other 10 are going up and down and fightin for gp spots its just like any oother real teams sport. look at yankees they been among the best teams forver and it takes a while to dethrone them. there only 2 consistent teams phx and sandmen and look at this seasons stats even if they change those 2 are doing different than they did before. i know as a team im responsible for my fighters and for makin them better. and i fuckin did that and will keepo doiung that. bas rutten bitches. i still aint seen no argument to if i can do it and it works for me that anyone cant do it. im least active here no? and i have been since day1