|
|
Post by The Sandmen on Dec 14, 2015 14:33:13 GMT -5
Part 1 (a): The women don't fight any differently than the men do because the simulator doesn't differentiate by gender; ? No one said gender had anything to do with it. It has to do with the lower overalls across the board. Perhaps you were not here, but when women were introduced, the majority of their fights were decisions, a lot like real life WMMA. The lower overalls mean less quick finishes. The Flyweights & Atomweight champions are just left off that list of great fighters simply because they don't/didn't have weight classes in UFC or Strikeforce, which is bullshit. Gals like Barb Honchak, Katja Kankaanpää, Livia Renata Souza, Ayaka Hamasaki, etc. deserve better than that since they are/were elite fighters and champions IRL. So much so that of that list, only 1 has a title defence. The rest just play musical belts until the UFC drafts one of them. Further problems are the fact that the UFC only has 2 divisions, as you said. So actually look at that. That means we'd have perpetual real life contenders or legends like Carmouche, Zingano, Kedzie, Eye, etc. stuck at 79 (by your system), while one-win-wonders like Herica Tiburcio get bumped up to a whopping 81. Despite having lost to Claudia Ghadelia (who, in your system, would still be a 79). Because WMMA is young, and Invicta is even younger, there is no historical scope. With historical scope, we see that WEC had limited male talent above lightweight, but that everything below that was amazing. We see Strikeforce had amazong talent pretty much all around. Same with Pride. There is no historical scope to Bellator, Invicta, or ONE FC, so I have not included them here. WSOF is built primarily on previously established fighters, so they're basically moot. |
|
|
|
Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Dec 14, 2015 15:34:28 GMT -5
Part 1 (a): The women don't fight any differently than the men do because the simulator doesn't differentiate by gender; ? No one said gender had anything to do with it. It has to do with the lower overalls across the board. Perhaps you were not here, but when women were introduced, the majority of their fights were decisions, a lot like real life WMMA. The lower overalls mean less quick finishes. The Flyweights & Atomweight champions are just left off that list of great fighters simply because they don't/didn't have weight classes in UFC or Strikeforce, which is bullshit. Gals like Barb Honchak, Katja Kankaanpää, Livia Renata Souza, Ayaka Hamasaki, etc. deserve better than that since they are/were elite fighters and champions IRL. So much so that of that list, only 1 has a title defence. The rest just play musical belts until the UFC drafts one of them. Further problems are the fact that the UFC only has 2 divisions, as you said. So actually look at that. That means we'd have perpetual real life contenders or legends like Carmouche, Zingano, Kedzie, Eye, etc. stuck at 79 (by your system), while one-win-wonders like Herica Tiburcio get bumped up to a whopping 81. Despite having lost to Claudia Ghadelia (who, in your system, would still be a 79). Because WMMA is young, and Invicta is even younger, there is no historical scope. With historical scope, we see that WEC had limited male talent above lightweight, but that everything below that was amazing. We see Strikeforce had amazong talent pretty much all around. Same with Pride. There is no historical scope to Bellator, Invicta, or ONE FC, so I have not included them here. WSOF is built primarily on previously established fighters, so they're basically moot. We're not talking about the men... stick to the topic. There's no real historical scope with your way either really. Those RL contenders & Legends that you're talking about (Carmouche, Zingano, Kedzie, Eye, etc.) are going to be perpetually stuck at 78 (by your system) which is no different than what I'm proposing except that the cap is adjusted to give them more room to focus their skills and grow. Kedzie, Carmouche... they'll never get to 80, let alone the 81 by my system. Kedzie's retired and Carmouche will likely never be champion either. Gals like Zingano and Eye atleast have a bit of a window left for that, but the chances of that happening are slim unless it's done within the next year or two, particularly with Zingano. So your point about them being stuck at 79 is moot when they'd still be stuck at 78 with your system. The scope needs to be a bit wider than you're suggesting with the women because even with what you're proposing, you're making it so no one but Carano, Cyborg, Kaufman, Jedrzejczyk, Coenen, Fujii, Nakai, etc. all remain at the top of ManMMA where they've always been and fuck everyone else unless you get a lucky shot. How does what you're proposing make it better for everyone in the league and not just a select few? |
|
|
|
Post by xx - Camp Cannon on Dec 14, 2015 16:01:31 GMT -5
its like the a b c point system of gthe men im not a fan of making the select few a's better and unstoppable based on popularity polls by no nothing fans..
also the ufc is adding a 125 division 4 women so theres that.. but yeah stupid a b c system..
|
|
|
|
Post by The Rocketmen on Dec 14, 2015 16:14:40 GMT -5
If I read this correctly...
Kruze wants it at 79 for women, and anyone who ever earned a championship anywhere, gets to be an 80.
Justin says no, because people with belts elsewhere would be allowed to be better than legitimate UFC talent.
Kruze then blames that returned reasoning on the fighters currently being 78s max.
... it's like there's three different arguments going on, and compounding them makes zero fucking sense.
|
|
|
|
Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Dec 14, 2015 18:38:36 GMT -5
If I read this correctly... Kruze wants it at 79 for women, and anyone who ever earned a championship anywhere, gets to be an 80. Justin says no, because people with belts elsewhere would be allowed to be better than legitimate UFC talent. Kruze then blames that returned reasoning on the fighters currently being 78s max. ... it's like there's three different arguments going on, and compounding them makes zero fucking sense. Nope... you're way off again.  lol I suggested that the current women's cap be upped to 79 from 78 and the champions be upped to 81, but that champions from UFC, Strikeforce AND Invicta be recognized instead of just UFC & Strikeforce because, in total, between UFC & Strikeforce, there's only 3 weight classes (Featherweight, Bantamweight & Straw-weight) and both Flyweight & Atomweight champions get swept under the rug just because UFC doesn't have those weight classes, which is BS. If we're going to say it's champions, then the only place we can look for those champions from those 2 weight classes, credibly, is Invicta. I said absolutely nothing about blaming that returned reasoning on fighters currently being capped at 78. Not a single word to that effect. |
|
|
|
Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Dec 14, 2015 18:51:51 GMT -5
More simply put, Sandman's suggestion for the men is of benefit to the entire league as a whole whereas his suggestion for the women is only of any benefit to 2-3 teams in the league. Expending the women's idea a bit makes it of benefit to everyone, not just 2-3 teams.
|
|
|
|
Post by The Sandmen on Dec 14, 2015 20:23:17 GMT -5
Issue 1: Raising the cap.
Am I willing to do that, regardless of this discussion, or a league vote? No. I am not. From an administrative perspective, as YOU YOURSELF said, we are still not getting the diversity of champions and high-end fighters in the women's division we have in the mens. I am not increasing the difficulty in making low or average female fighters competitive any more. I was reluctant to even include the women at all in this suggestion for that very reason, but figured you would appreciate some female-love. Plus, since it only affects a few women, most of whom are not capped anyways, sure - one overall for the time being. But 3? 100% no.
Issue 2: Invicta
Including Invicta belts is stupid and is also something I am unwilling to do. If you can find another organization with established female fighters/champions and a longer history/scope, we can look at that, but right now, Invicta doesn;t work for us. It's only a few years old, the champions are second-tier fighters to their UFC counterparts, and the UFC belts (held by ACTUAL champions) are much harder to attain. Hell, Including Bellator's female belt makes more sense, since at least that was earned by winning a legit-as-fuck tournament. Invicta belts and title shots are pretty much nothing, held by pretty much nobodies. There is no reason on God's green Earth to make Herica Tiburcio cap at 81, and people like Kedzie and Carano cap at 79. It's absurd and I am unwilling to add absurdification here at this juncture.
|
|
|
|
Post by xx - Camp Cannon on Dec 14, 2015 20:27:32 GMT -5
More simply put, Sandman's suggestion for the men is of benefit to the entire league as a whole whereas his suggestion for the women is only of any benefit to 2-3 teams in the league. Expending the women's idea a bit makes it of benefit to everyone, not just 2-3 teams. how do u figure it benefit to the league in whole i only have 1 a fighter maybe 2 with JDS(unsure of JDS) but lyoto an A and he lost to riockhold and also only held the belt for 1 title defence.. |
|
|
|
Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Dec 14, 2015 23:03:21 GMT -5
More simply put, Sandman's suggestion for the men is of benefit to the entire league as a whole whereas his suggestion for the women is only of any benefit to 2-3 teams in the league. Expending the women's idea a bit makes it of benefit to everyone, not just 2-3 teams. how do u figure it benefit to the league in whole i only have 1 a fighter maybe 2 with JDS(unsure of JDS) but lyoto an A and he lost to riockhold and also only held the belt for 1 title defence.. By enlarge, the men's suggestion benefits everyone in the league, including you. Randleman's cap goes up... His women's suggestion benefits you, him and couple others and only affects fighters that are dominant in ManMAA already, leaves the rest of the women to twist in the wind. It's great for you, but not so great for me and others like me that have top end fighters that haven't won a title, and may never win one, whether it's due to retirement, age or that they are a champion or former champion in a credible organization that's not "recognized" by Sandman as one, but the ones he does "recognize" don't have weight classes that these other elite fighters & champions aren't eligible for cuz they don't fight in 1 of 3 weight classes, which is bullshit. It's not fair to the league as a whole unless all the women get a raise in cap; not just the "champions" that are already dominant in ManMMA. |
|
|
|
Post by xx - Camp Cannon on Dec 14, 2015 23:18:29 GMT -5
I would recognize Invicta over Bellator but Sandmen does not watch invicta and he watches bellator even i think bellator is a weak organization compared to ufc and strike force but spike has to fulfill the missing ufc void with a weak amateur league
|
|
|
|
Post by The Sandmen on Dec 14, 2015 23:32:41 GMT -5
I would recognize Invicta over Bellator but Sandmen does not watch invicta and he watches bellator even i think bellator is a weak organization compared to ufc and strike force but spike has to fulfill the missing ufc void with a weak amateur league I would never consider Bellator men. But check out the only Bellator female tournament. It was stacked by pretty much any definition. That's about the only reason I would consider that. Again, at the time there were less places in North America for women to get fights, belts and exposure. |
|
|
|
Post by xx - Camp Cannon on Dec 14, 2015 23:49:51 GMT -5
I would recognize Invicta over Bellator but Sandmen does not watch invicta and he watches bellator even i think bellator is a weak organization compared to ufc and strike force but spike has to fulfill the missing ufc void with a weak amateur league I would never consider Bellator men. But check out the only Bellator female tournament. It was stacked by pretty much any definition. That's about the only reason I would consider that. Again, at the time there were less places in North America for women to get fights, belts and exposure. m,aybe back when but right now the only reqal fighter they have is marloes coenen.. Zoila Gurgel is thier only champion and she vacated belt to goto invicta.. |
|
|
|
Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Dec 14, 2015 23:56:32 GMT -5
I would never consider Bellator men. But check out the only Bellator female tournament. It was stacked by pretty much any definition. That's about the only reason I would consider that. Again, at the time there were less places in North America for women to get fights, belts and exposure. m,aybe back when but right now the only reqal fighter they have is marloes coenen.. Zoila Gurgel is thier only champion and she vacated belt to goto invicta.. Gee, I wonder why fighters would leave to go to Invicta?! lol |
|
|
|
Post by xx - Camp Cannon on Dec 14, 2015 23:58:43 GMT -5
i dunno maybe cause its a better organization i can tell ya why coenen left invicta cause she can never beat cyborg at 145..
|
|
|
|
Post by The Sandmen on Dec 15, 2015 7:55:03 GMT -5
m,aybe back when but right now the only reqal fighter they have is marloes coenen.. Zoila Gurgel is thier only champion and she vacated belt to goto invicta.. Gee, I wonder why fighters would leave to go to Invicta?! lol Ya don't see many leaving UFC for Invicta though, do ya. Not unless they got fired. Moral: Invicta makes no sense, thus I think we're good to move forward with this suggestion as it sits starting post-Grand Prix.  Anyone have additional questions, comments, concerns? |
|
lol
Have 9 points in celebration of this monumental achievement!