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Post by The Sandmen on Oct 10, 2016 18:22:41 GMT -5
Starting with this draft moving forward, I'm going to be tightening up draft rules a little bit to keep things sane around here. Let's call it "The Punk-Gall Amendment". And let me say, first and foremost, this is a polished first draft of this amendment. Small changes will probably be made, so please, instead of complaining, suggest fine-tunes and let's get this making some sense together. I should also add that while I did spend many hours on this, the bulk of my time was spent focussing on men, rather than women. We might find as we look at more options, the women-focused rules need to be modified, and that is fine. From this draft onwards, for a fighter to be ManMMA Eligible, they must be considered a "noteworthy fighter". Over time I'm sure as a site we will really dig into the fine line of this, but for right now, our preliminary definition of "Noteworthy" means their resume must include at least one of the following: (Regardless of what is listed below, a fighter must have a Wikipedia page to be ManMMA-eligible)- A champion from a major MMA organization*. - A title contender from UFC, Pride, or Strikeforce. - A UFC tournament or Pride Grand Prix win or runner-up. - An Olympian who has at least 1 Professional MMA fight. - A Pancrase champion - An Ultimate Fighter "main season" winner with at least 1 subsequent UFC win. - Any fighter on Fight Matrix's Top 25 fighters of all time in each weight class. - Any fighter on the UFC's list of their top 200 fighters of all time. - Any female fighter on any of Fight Matrix's "top" lists (for example, this). - A fighter who has a pro MMA win over someone eligible via the above criteria (reviewed on a case-by-case basis - PM The Sandmen before hand). - If you don't want to put work into all this research and want to ask The Sandmen about a specific fighter, he will be happy do the research on your behalf  *Major MMA organizations, for our purposes, are "Pride, Strikeforce, UFC, Bellator, WSoF, ONE, WEC, EliteXC, Dream, Invicta, and Jewels".
I think this is a decent starting point. If we could keep the raging to a minimum, and just simply stick to suggesting organizations or stipulations to add, that would be most productive.Thanks |
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Post by The Texas Rattlesnakes on Oct 10, 2016 18:37:03 GMT -5
If they have beaten someone that is on the site right now.
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Post by The Sandmen on Oct 10, 2016 19:23:41 GMT -5
If they have beaten someone that is on the site right now. If we had these guidelines at the beginning of the site, this would make a lot of sense. But since the floodgates were open for a long time, this opens the door to a lot of crap. We'll see though. (Also, ManNXT does not count as "on the site right now"  ) |
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Post by The Texas Rattlesnakes on Oct 10, 2016 20:27:23 GMT -5
Grrrrr
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Post by The Texas Rattlesnakes on Oct 10, 2016 20:27:46 GMT -5
I feel like some of those rules are a little strict
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Oct 10, 2016 20:33:57 GMT -5
I can see how this would've worked back even when I joined or in the beginning, but, as you said, with the floodgates open this long, this becomes too estringent IMO. Only because, in perusing your "lists" there, nearly all of those fighters are already in ManMMA or ManNXT... In my view, this will hurt the drafting process even more to the point that, in a few more seasons, there won't be any new fighters to draft at all. And that's not a good thing either.
I understand your notion that you want "the best of the best" in ManMMA, but after this many seasons of allowing any fighter in, I see this as doing more harm than good at this stage and this many seasons in. It's honestly too late to start getting nitpicky now.
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Post by The Sandmen on Oct 10, 2016 20:43:16 GMT -5
I can see how this would've worked back even when I joined or in the beginning, but, as you said, with the floodgates open this long, this becomes too estringent IMO. Only because, in perusing your "lists" there, nearly all of those fighters are already in ManMMA or ManNXT... In my view, this will hurt the drafting process even more to the point that, in a few more seasons, there won't be any new fighters to draft at all. And that's not a good thing either. I understand your notion that you want "the best of the best" in ManMMA, but after this many seasons of allowing any fighter in, I see this as doing more harm than good at this stage and this many seasons in. It's honestly too late to start getting nitpicky now. I think this is exactly why this is the best time for it. We have legends on free agency. Guys who could and should be fighting here. I have no interest in creating Mickey Gall or CM Punk when real legends of the sport are readily available. With only a few exceptions, there is no new fighter who will be any better than guys we have available already. So instead of watching guys like Oleg Taktarov rot on free agency while I have to create and book fights for someone stupid like Mickey Gall or Sage Northcutt, this will bring those guys back into the mix. Also, in terms of "if this was going to be done, it should have been done a long time ago", I was not given the foresight to know this would be a casual MMA site, and people would be more interested in WWE stars who had 1 MMA loss than MMA superstars who won titles and tournaments. I have let the league be lenient enough for long enough. Now it's time to be an MMA site again. The "Gall-Punk" situation was the perfect catalyst for that, thus now the timing is perfect. |
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Ferocity
Black Belt (5th Degree)
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Post by Ferocity on Oct 10, 2016 21:57:01 GMT -5
I don't know enough about enough fighters to determine who this would effect, but I DO like that is very thorough and clear.
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Oct 10, 2016 22:04:05 GMT -5
I can see how this would've worked back even when I joined or in the beginning, but, as you said, with the floodgates open this long, this becomes too estringent IMO. Only because, in perusing your "lists" there, nearly all of those fighters are already in ManMMA or ManNXT... In my view, this will hurt the drafting process even more to the point that, in a few more seasons, there won't be any new fighters to draft at all. And that's not a good thing either. I understand your notion that you want "the best of the best" in ManMMA, but after this many seasons of allowing any fighter in, I see this as doing more harm than good at this stage and this many seasons in. It's honestly too late to start getting nitpicky now. I think this is exactly why this is the best time for it. We have legends on free agency. Guys who could and should be fighting here. I have no interest in creating Mickey Gall or CM Punk when real legends of the sport are readily available. With only a few exceptions, there is no new fighter who will be any better than guys we have available already. So instead of watching guys like Oleg Taktarov rot on free agency while I have to create and book fights for someone stupid like Mickey Gall or Sage Northcutt, this will bring those guys back into the mix. Also, in terms of "if this was going to be done, it should have been done a long time ago", I was not given the foresight to know this would be a casual MMA site, and people would be more interested in WWE stars who had 1 MMA loss than MMA superstars who won titles and tournaments. I have let the league be lenient enough for long enough. Now it's time to be an MMA site again. The "Gall-Punk" situation was the perfect catalyst for that, thus now the timing is perfect. On one hand I agree with you, but on the other, I believe folks should be able to build their teams how they want with who they want, if they are/were MMA fighters, even if they were wrestling superstars as well. Who cares? I personally don't have any issue with seeing guys like Brock Lesnar, Bobby Lashley, Alberto Rodriguez, Dave Bautista... Or if guys like Sean O'Hare, Daniel Puder or even Phil Brooks (Punk) ended up here in ManMMA, provided they have a win, which Brooks unfortunately does not. To me, it's no real difference than guys like Tank, The Beast, Shamrock, etc. being pro wrestlers as well. Whether you like it or not, they really are crossover mediums Justin. I know it's not always ideal for you as the simmer and the guy that puts these guys into the program, but denying people who they want on their teams, especially after allowing it for what's going to amount to 17 seasons now, there's no real point. Are you fond of having to make these guys? No... But it's not all about you Justin; atleast it shouldn't be. I have fighters I don't like too or don't think should be here... We all do, but they're still a part of the fabric of the sport, whether we like it or not. That's just the way it is. |
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Post by The Sandmen on Oct 10, 2016 22:14:35 GMT -5
But it's not all about you Justin; atleast it shouldn't be. I have fighters I don't like too or don't think should be here... If you get bored and quit, ManMMA loses a member. If I get bored and quit, the members lose ManMMA. To me, it's no real difference than guys like Tank, The Beast, Shamrock, etc. being pro wrestlers as well. Wow, are you kidding me? There is a HUGE difference, and even you must see that, if you are being honest with yourself. Wrestling is not real. It is not a combat sport. MMA is THE combat sport. You are talking about the difference between fighters getting into acting and actors getting into fighting. Tank, Severn and SHamrock were all MMA fighters first. |
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Oct 10, 2016 22:27:35 GMT -5
But it's not all about you Justin; atleast it shouldn't be. I have fighters I don't like too or don't think should be here... If you get bored and quit, ManMMA loses a member. If I get bored and quit, the members lose ManMMA. Yes, we all realize that... As you so threaten every time we get into these debates. It's still not all about you... The members need to be interested too, not just you. To me, it's no real difference than guys like Tank, The Beast, Shamrock, etc. being pro wrestlers as well. Wow, are you kidding me? Yes, Kruze, there is a HUGE difference! You are talking about MMA FIGHTERS becoming actors, vs. actors becoming fighters. There is a WORLD of difference. And that is a fact (Ask CM Punk, lol). You obviously don't understand wrestling at all then if you think it's all just acting. Is it coreographed? Yes. Are the outcomes pre-determined? Yes. But if it was all "just acting" everyone and their dog could do it. Wrestlers are not just actors. |
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Ferocity
Black Belt (5th Degree)
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Post by Ferocity on Oct 10, 2016 22:36:39 GMT -5
Professional wrestles are losers. Case closed.
Let's all stand around looking stupid and waiting for people to hit us. I actually assumed it was in slow motion once, but no, they just ever so slowly hit eacother and stand around looking exhausted at the edge of the ring.
These guys can only be considered athletes at all because they hit the gym and do steroids.
They are nothing like MMA fighters.
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Post by The Sandmen on Oct 10, 2016 22:44:34 GMT -5
lol
It's a performance art. I respect it for what it is. But what it is is NOT MMA. Hell, it's not even a sport. It's it's own unique brand of entertainment/live-action theatre. It's a lot of really cool and unique things. The more I think about it, the more I really do love Professional Wrestling. But it ain't no MMA.
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Post by xx - Former Phoenix Fight Club on Oct 11, 2016 0:34:44 GMT -5
lol It's a performance art. I respect it for what it is. But what it is is NOT MMA. Hell, it's not even a sport. It's it's own unique brand of entertainment/live-action theatre. It's a lot of really cool and unique things. The more I think about it, the more I really do love Professional Wrestling. But it ain't no MMA. Oh, I agree that it's vaudville and sport combined with a bit Cirque de Soleil type arcobatics sometimes, but to say these performers aren't athletes at all, is absolutely absurd. Is it MMA in it's purest form? No, absolutely not, but wrestling is considered to be MMA, and most of these wrestlers come a wrestling background, or an athletic background of some sort, usually football if not wrestling. Love it or hate it, wrestling and MMA are crossover platforms... If it wasn't we wouldn't have guys like Brock Lesnar, Dave Bautista or Sean O'Haire going to MMA and succeeding, more or less, nor would we have guys like Shamrock, Abbott, Severn or Ortiz going to wrestling either. There is still elements of MMA in wrestling, and we all know wrestling's elements in MMA. I understand the mentality that "it's all fake", but, unless you've done it yourself, you honestly have no idea how fake it actually isn't. lol ...and that's actually the truth. |
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Post by The Sandmen on Oct 11, 2016 1:00:35 GMT -5
I never said it was all fake. I understand professional wrestling, fully and wholly. Which is why I am VERY comfortable with my assessment that it is not, nor will it ever be, MMA. They are in no way cross-over sports. Pro Wrestling is not a gateway into MMA. ACTUAL combat sports (amateur wrestling, boxing, Mauy thai, etc) ARE gateways. Of the guys you mentioned, Brock had a legit combat sports background (college wrestling), O'Haire had a mediocre-at-best MMA record (he lost to Butterbean... in his most "legit" fight), and Dave Bautista has had 1 fight...and he is 47. So for all intents and purposes, his career is over. To call him a "successful transition into MMA", based on our "Best of all time" litmus test is a joke.
So, again, there is still no basis for your claim that any WWE wrestler who has had any MMA fights should be here. I'm very comfortable keeping CM Punk, Sean O'Haire, and and Dave Bautista off the ManMMA list.
At this point, in the interest of actually going somewhere useful with this discussion, I would recomend you stop focussing on WWE fighters, since nothing about the new draft system excludes them. And you have not pitched a specific suggestion to include them, so I'm not even really sure why you are arguing WWE = MMA here. It's pretty irrelevant. If a WWE star was legit, he would find his want into a position to be on this broadly-encompassing list of eligible MMA stars. If not...he didn't make the cut.
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